Nabble - kde-linux

Re: In KDE4, to set a different background for each of the multiple desktops

2009-12-24T09:07:01Z

At 18:22:12 on Thursday Thursday 24 December 2009, "Boyd Stephen Smith
Jr." <bss@...> wrote:
> Also, with the analog switch-over the government is forcing analog
> signals to shut down. The the KDE 4 switch over, no one is taking the
> existing KDE 3.5.10 source code away from you.

The Government forces the analog stations to shut down because if they
don't there is no benefit at all to switching to digital, since both
stations are on the air and eating up bandwidht. There is no analogy at
all with KDE4.

--
Stan Goodman
Qiryat Tiv'on
Israel
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Re: In KDE4, to set a different background for each of the multiple desktops

2009-12-24T08:22:12Z

In <200912241736.45687.stan.goodman@...>, Stan Goodman wrote:

>At 13:37:32 on Thursday Thursday 24 December 2009, "Gaffer."
><derrick_s@...> wrote:
>> Which is why KDE with "4" has lost its way !
>> All due respect to the developers and their vision, but going down the
>> road they have has not helped endearment of KDE 4. I see parallels
>> with the "Digital TV" debacle. Analog is going to be switched off
>> whether you like it or not !
>
>Digital TV is not a good analogy. The reason for forcing its adoption at
>the expense of individual inconvenience is that it saves bandwidth by
>making multiplexing possible. The society profits from the change. Nobody
>profits from the forced adoption of KDE4, and there is no payback to the
>inconvenience of individual users.

Also, with the analog switch-over the government is forcing analog signals to
shut down. The the KDE 4 switch over, no one is taking the existing KDE
3.5.10 source code away from you.

If there are enough like-minded people, there should be nothing stopping you
from creating a KDE 3 4-ever project and releasing KDE 3.5.11 in a few months.
--
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =.
bss@... ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-'
http://iguanasuicide.net/ \_/

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Re: In KDE4, to set a different background for each of the multiple desktops

2009-12-24T07:36:45Z

At 13:37:32 on Thursday Thursday 24 December 2009, "Gaffer."
<derrick_s@...> wrote:
> Which is why KDE with "4" has lost its way !
> All due respect to the developers and their vision, but going down the
> road they have has not helped endearment of KDE 4. I see parallels
> with the "Digital TV" debacle. Analog is going to be switched off
> whether you like it or not !

Digital TV is not a good analogy. The reason for forcing its adoption at
the expense of individual inconvenience is that it saves bandwidth by
making multiplexing possible. The society profits from the change. Nobody
profits from the forced adoption of KDE4, and there is no payback to the
inconvenience of individual users.

--
Stan Goodman
Qiryat Tiv'on
Israel
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Re: Video thumbnails on Dolphin

2009-12-24T06:08:26Z

> How could I get video thumbnails on Dolphin, in the same way it shows
> for photos? I would really appreciate this.

*MPlayerThumbs*

MPlayerThumbs is a video thumbnail generator for KDE file managers
(Konqueror, Dolphin, ...) , now available also for KDE 4.
It needs mplayer (of course) to generate thumbnails, and it contains
no linking to any library, so in a x86_64 system you can freely use
the 32bit mplayer binary with win32codecs by configuring the
application launching the mplayerthumbsconfig helper application.
It catches a random frame from 15% to 70%, checking also how
contrasted is the image, and dropping bad frames.
http://kde-apps.org/content/show.php/MPlayerThumbs?content=41180

*Mplayerthumbs-Strips*

This is a slightly hacked version of mplayerthumbs and intended for
those who have a fetish for a \"picture-perfect\" desktop, whatever
that means.

The thumbnails generated by mplayerthumbs look somewhat ugly, IMHO -
that is, there is a thin blue(cyan ?!) strip, and only on the left
side of the image!
So I decided to change the code a bit to generate thumbnails with
better-looking stripes - delicious(I hope) black-white stripes on BOTH
sides of the thumbnail.
http://kde-apps.org/content/show.php/Mplayerthumbs-Strips?content=114655

*kffmpegthumbnailer*

This video thumbnailer can be used to create thumbnails for your video
files. The thumbnailer uses ffmpeg to decode frames from the video
files, so supported videoformats depend on the configuration flags of
ffmpeg.

This thumbnailer was designed to be as fast and lightweight as
possible. The only dependencies are ffmpeg, libpng and libjpeg.
http://kde-apps.org/content/show.php/kffmpegthumbnailer?content=117562
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Re: Network Settings

2009-12-24T05:52:09Z

On Wednesday, 2009-12-23, James Tyrer wrote:

> Kevin Krammer wrote:
> > On Tuesday, 2009-12-22, James Tyrer wrote:
> >> $ sudo /sbin/ldconfig -v |grep libsolid.so
> >> ibsolid.so.4 -> libsolid.so.4.3.0
> >>
> >> So, solid appears to be installed.
> >
> > It is part of kdelibs, so if you are using any KDE application it had to
> > be there :)
> >
> >> $ sudo /sbin/pidof NetworkManager
> >> 1050
> >>
> >> The NetworkManager appears to be running, but to make sure:
> >>
> >> $ sudo /etc/rc.d/init.d/NetworkManager status
> >> NetworkManager (pid 1050) is running...
> >>
> >> But, it doesn't work.
> >
> > Do you have nm-system-settings running?
>
> No, it isn't running. I checked and it is installed in /usr/sbin/.
> There is no documentation for that executable, so I presume that the
> user isn't supposed to run it.

Right, it is running as root here.
Not sure what started it, maybe the networkmanager start script.

> > I am not an expert on NetworkManager, but I think this is its utility to
> > get system level network configuration.
>
> So, if it needs it, the daemon would run it?

No idea, sorry.

> Further investigation: nm-tool finds my eth0 NIC card but reports an error:
>
> ** (process:1585): WARNING **: error: failed to read connections from
> org.freedesktop.NetworkManagerUserSettings:
> The name org.freedesktop.NetworkManagerUserSettings was not
> provided by any .service files
>
> ** (process:1585): WARNING **: error: failed to read connections from
> org.freedesktop.NetworkManagerSystemSettings:
> Launch helper exited with unknown return code 1
>
> this appears to indicate that I am missing a *.service file

The first error seems to indicate that there is no user level settings agent
running, e.g. knetworkmanager.
Thus networkmanager attempts to check the system level settings (I assume
that's the nm-system-settings tool) but it seems to fail with an unknown
error.

You could try starting it manually as root and see if it writes anything to
the console.

Cheers,
Kevin

--
Kevin Krammer, KDE developer, xdg-utils developer
KDE user support, developer mentoring

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Re: In KDE4, to set a different background for each of the multiple desktops

2009-12-24T03:37:32Z

On Thursday 24 December 2009 11:20:47 Anne Wilson wrote:

> On Thursday 24 December 2009 10:35:51 Stan Goodman wrote:
> > It's called criticism. It's the convenient way to let the
> > development team know that they have gone off the rails, if not
> > completely off their trolley. Discussion does not have to be
> > limited to "How do I ....".
>
> It might have been useful, once upon a time, but the developers have
> had two years of people complaining that they can't be bothered to
> learn the new ways. When people have made genuine constructive
> criticism it has been heard and acted upon. There are several major
> examples of this. They have been talked about here and elsewhere,
> and no, I'm not going to repeat them.
>
> I seriously hope no-one expects to get anything useful or helpful
> from this thread, because most people capable of helping have long
> stopped reading it.
>
> Anne

Which is why KDE with "4" has lost its way !
All due respect to the developers and their vision, but going down the
road they have has not helped endearment of KDE 4. I see parallels
with the "Digital TV" debacle. Analog is going to be switched off
whether you like it or not !

--
Best Regards:
Derrick.
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Re: In KDE4, to set a different background for each of the multiple desktops

2009-12-24T03:27:07Z

[ Comments below, in line ]

On Thursday 24 December 2009 at 6:20 am, Anne Wilson penned
about "Re: [kde-linux] In KDE4, to set a different background for each of the multiple desktops"

> I seriously hope no-one expects to get anything useful or helpful
> from this thread, because most people capable of helping have long
> stopped reading it.

Hi Anne,

You're exactly right. I haven't /dev/null'd Stan yet but I'm very
close. I enjoy reading constructive criticism but pompous whining I
can do without.

Cheers,
--
Pablo Sanchez - Blueoak Database Engineering, Inc
Ph: 819.459.1926 Fax: 760.860.5225 (US)

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Re: In KDE4, to set a different background for each of the multiple desktops

2009-12-24T03:20:47Z

On Thursday 24 December 2009 10:35:51 Stan Goodman wrote:
> It's called criticism. It's the convenient way to let the development team
> know that they have gone off the rails, if not completely off their
> trolley. Discussion does not have to be limited to "How do I ....".
>
It might have been useful, once upon a time, but the developers have had two
years of people complaining that they can't be bothered to learn the new ways.
When people have made genuine constructive criticism it has been heard and
acted upon. There are several major examples of this. They have been talked
about here and elsewhere, and no, I'm not going to repeat them.

I seriously hope no-one expects to get anything useful or helpful from this
thread, because most people capable of helping have long stopped reading it.

Anne
--
KDE Community Working Group
New to KDE Software? - get help from http://userbase.kde.org

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Re: In KDE4, to set a different background for each of the multiple desktops

2009-12-24T02:35:51Z

At 11:23:58 on Thursday Thursday 24 December 2009, Steven Crooks
<steven@...> wrote:

> On Tuesday 22 December 2009 23:13:50 Stan Goodman wrote:
> > In KDE3 this was possible. The background-installation process is
> > very similar in KDE4, but the result is that the same background is
> > displayed in each of the desktops. Is this a new limitation, or am I
> > missing something. I would be grateful for this information, and any
> > other that will help me with the kind of desktop that I have had in
> > the past, and would like to have again.
>
> Having a look at the actual topic (not the one Stan set), i would say,
> this thread is as offtopic as it can get.
> The initial question was quite simple, it would have taken maybe two or
> three answers to "solve" it, but again (and this happens often atm) the
> thread was hijacked for another
> "kde3-was-the-best-ever-and-kde4-is-totally-crap" bashing. And
> everybody is jumping on it...

It's called criticism. It's the convenient way to let the development team
know that they have gone off the rails, if not completely off their
trolley. Discussion does not have to be limited to "How do I ....".

> I will unsubscibe from this list, i'm fed up with the permanently,
> (mostly) pointless bashing. There is no support here anymore (well, it
> still is, but a it's very small part).
>
> Steven

--
Stan Goodman
Qiryat Tiv'on
Israel
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kde3-was-the-best-ever-and-kde4-is-totally-crap - was: In KDE4, to set a different background for each of the multiple desktops

2009-12-24T01:40:53Z

Am Thursday 24 December 2009 10:23:58 schrieb Steven Crooks:
> Having a look at the actual topic (not the one Stan set), i would say,
> this thread is as offtopic as it can get.

agreed :)
should have been renamed long ago...

> The initial question was quite simple, it would have taken maybe two or
> three answers to "solve" it, but again (and this happens often atm) the
> thread was hijacked for another
> "kde3-was-the-best-ever-and-kde4-is-totally-crap" bashing. And everybody
> is jumping on it...

that is IMO no surprise.
it is a fact that there are many kde3.x users who still don't feel comfortable
with kde4, for several reasons (which are not necessarily objective).
so, why should they not be able to articulate their frustration on a kde list
?
and, as said before, this situation would have been much better if there would
have been more support for kde3 from the mainstream distros, which is
obviously not the case.

> I will unsubscibe from this list, i'm fed up with the permanently,
> (mostly) pointless bashing.

why not just ignore those posts ?

> There is no support here anymore (well, it
> still is, but a it's very small part).

that depends on topic/common interest.

werner
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Re: In KDE4, to set a different background for each of the multiple desktops

2009-12-24T01:23:58Z

On Tuesday 22 December 2009 23:13:50 Stan Goodman wrote:
> In KDE3 this was possible. The background-installation process is very
> similar in KDE4, but the result is that the same background is displayed
> in each of the desktops. Is this a new limitation, or am I missing
> something. I would be grateful for this information, and any other that
> will help me with the kind of desktop that I have had in the past, and
> would like to have again.
>

Having a look at the actual topic (not the one Stan set), i would say, this
thread is as offtopic as it can get.
The initial question was quite simple, it would have taken maybe two or three
answers to "solve" it, but again (and this happens often atm) the thread was
hijacked for another "kde3-was-the-best-ever-and-kde4-is-totally-crap"
bashing. And everybody is jumping on it...
I will unsubscibe from this list, i'm fed up with the permanently, (mostly)
pointless bashing. There is no support here anymore (well, it still is, but a
it's very small part).

Steven

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Re: In KDE4, to set a different background for each of the multiple desktops

2009-12-24T01:10:01Z

At 10:02:36 on Thursday Thursday 24 December
2009, "Joe$theWordy$Philbrook" <jtwdyp@...> wrote:

> It would appear that on Dec 23, Dale did say:
> > Felix Miata wrote:
> > > On 2009/12/23 14:45 (GMT-0500) James Loughner composed:
> > >> Stan Goodman wrote:
> > >>> Right you are. I will continue to examine that facility, which I
> > >>> currently regard as useless FOR ME.
> > >>
> > >> LOL It is useless to you because you have not yet seen the light.
> > >
> > > As many won't, since it's hidden in an unintuitive maze.
>
> -snipped. . . . . . . . . .stuff
>
> > I sincerely hope KDE does a better job with KDE 5. I have read where
> > several people have switched away form KDE because of the way this
> > was done. KDE 3 was dropped before KDE 4 was even off to a good
> > stable start. At least that is my opinion anyway. For me, KDE 4 is
> > still not ready.

"Several people" is inaccurate. It is a stampede. For myself, I have tried
several times to adapt myself to KDE4, in order to convince myself that
it is not mere stubbornness that makes me resent it. It won't work.

> Yeah, I used to be a die hard kde fan who would use no other desktop.
> Then along came kde4 and it seamed to me they threw away every thing I
> liked about kde. I could understand that kde3 was based on mature code
> with too many patches and maybe did need a complete rewrite. But I
> didn't understand why it seemed that the new code couldn't have allowed
> users to interface with it in familiar ways. I was also frustrated by
> the fact that much of kde3 could be configured without even touching
> the durned rodent. (I'm a keyboard man who has difficulty making the
> mouse point at the right spot long enough to click on the right thing)
> and it felt like the interface for any and all configuration tools was
> now all about making it impossible to configure anything without the
> mouse...
>
> Then I did see the light. Literally I installed EnLIGHTenment. With
> most linux distros I still start with the kde version. But that's
> mostly because I'm used to some of the kde applications. Then the next
> thing I do is add both e16, & e17...
>
> To be fair, the E17 devs aren't all that friendly towards the concept
> of using the keyboard for configuration chores either. But it's still
> less work to get things running my way. There are fewer "gee whiz lets
> automate everything he doesn't want to do, and hide everything he does"
> things for me to have to figure out. So I don't really see me coming
> back to kde any time soon. But given how fond the e17 devs are of mouse
> based tools, it's possible that by the time there is a kde5, I might be
> ready for another change, and if kde5 lets me work the way I think, and
> lets me use my keyboard as the primary input device (especially for
> configuration chores). I might even switch back. Time will tell.

--
Stan Goodman
Qiryat Tiv'on
Israel
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Re: In KDE4, to set a different background for each of the multiple desktops

2009-12-24T00:02:36Z

It would appear that on Dec 23, Dale did say:

> Felix Miata wrote:
> > On 2009/12/23 14:45 (GMT-0500) James Loughner composed:
> >> Stan Goodman wrote:
> >>> Right you are. I will continue to examine that facility, which I currently
> >>> regard as useless FOR ME.
> >> LOL It is useless to you because you have not yet seen the light.
> > As many won't, since it's hidden in an unintuitive maze.

-snipped. . . . . . . . . .stuff

> I sincerely hope KDE does a better job with KDE 5. I have read where
> several people have switched away form KDE because of the way this was
> done. KDE 3 was dropped before KDE 4 was even off to a good stable
> start. At least that is my opinion anyway. For me, KDE 4 is still not
> ready.

Yeah, I used to be a die hard kde fan who would use no other desktop. Then
along came kde4 and it seamed to me they threw away every thing I liked
about kde. I could understand that kde3 was based on mature code with too
many patches and maybe did need a complete rewrite. But I didn't understand
why it seemed that the new code couldn't have allowed users to interface
with it in familiar ways. I was also frustrated by the fact that much of
kde3 could be configured without even touching the durned rodent.
(I'm a keyboard man who has difficulty making the mouse point at the right
spot long enough to click on the right thing) and it felt like the
interface for any and all configuration tools was now all about making it
impossible to configure anything without the mouse...

Then I did see the light. Literally I installed EnLIGHTenment. With most linux
distros I still start with the kde version. But that's mostly because I'm
used to some of the kde applications. Then the next thing I do is add
both e16, & e17...

To be fair, the E17 devs aren't all that friendly towards the concept of
using the keyboard for configuration chores either. But it's still less
work to get things running my way. There are fewer "gee whiz lets automate
everything he doesn't want to do, and hide everything he does" things for me
to have to figure out. So I don't really see me coming back to kde any time
soon. But given how fond the e17 devs are of mouse based tools, it's
possible that by the time there is a kde5, I might be ready for another
change, and if kde5 lets me work the way I think, and lets me use my
keyboard as the primary input device (especially for configuration chores).
I might even switch back. Time will tell.

--
| --- ___
| <0> <-> Joe (theWordy) Philbrook
| ^ J(tWdy)P
| ~\___/~ <<jtwdyp@...>>

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Re: In KDE4, to set a different background for each of the multiple desktops

2009-12-23T14:58:16Z

Stan Goodman wrote:

> At 23:52:15 on Wednesday Wednesday 23 December 2009, Dale
> <rdalek1967@...> wrote:
>
>>
>> I think they should have looked at it this was as well. If you own a
>> business that depends on a stable KDE desktop, where are you now? KDE
>> 3 is not supported by KDE anymore. KDE 4 is still a work in progress
>> and for me at least, isn't usable yet. So, if I had a business and
>> needed a dependable desktop, I'd be looking for something else, not
>> KDE.
>>
>> I'm a Gentoo user and since KDE dropped KDE 3, they are dropping it as
>> well. It is being moved over to layman but it is no longer supported
>> by the Gentoo devs. Some packages are already being removed because of
>> a security bug or they no longer compile.
>>
>> So the choices are, keep a unsupported KDE 3 around or a somewhat
>> unusable KDE 4 or switch to something else. This makes Gnome, Fluxbox
>> and some other DMs start to look better when faces with those options.
>> Nothing is perfect but I am sure this could have been handled a lot
>> better. It's not like KDE was born yesterday.
>>
>> Dale
>>
>
> Interesting to speculate on what the major distros will do in the short
> term, and what Novell will do about its enterprise product. As for KDE,
> this may be a wakeup call with even a wider meaning -- they anyway need
> to think about the need to ride herd (gently, of course) on the
> activities (Uh! that word) of developers who think anything they turn out
> is acceptable.
>
>

I have mentioned this before. If they had continued support for KDE
3.5, even just bug and security fixes, until say mid 2010, things would
be so different. I like KDE and even hope to use KDE 4 but this
experience has left a bad taste in my mouth. I think KDE 4 will be
pretty usable before to long. I'm thinking February or something like
that. Some things may not be ready until later on but right now, we
need a larger transition window where both are maintained.

All this being said, KDE most likely hasn't learned a thing. I won't be
surprised if they do KDE 5 the exact same way. Let's hope not tho.

Dale

:-) :-)
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Re: In KDE4, to set a different background for each of the multiple desktops

2009-12-23T14:41:19Z

At 23:52:15 on Wednesday Wednesday 23 December 2009, Dale
<rdalek1967@...> wrote:

> Stan Goodman wrote:
> > At 23:08:36 on Wednesday Wednesday 23 December 2009, Dale
> >
> > <rdalek1967@...> wrote:
> >> Felix Miata wrote:
> >>> On 2009/12/23 14:45 (GMT-0500) James Loughner composed:
> >>>> Stan Goodman wrote:
> >>>>> Right you are. I will continue to examine that facility, which I
> >>>>> currently regard as useless FOR ME.
> >>>>
> >>>> LOL It is useless to you because you have not yet seen the light.
> >>>
> >>> As many won't, since it's hidden in an unintuitive maze.
> >>>
> >>>> After all who needs microwave ovens or cell phones??
> >>>
> >>> If you want the healthiest possible cooked food, you don't cook it
> >>> in a microwave oven.
> >>>
> >>> There is no cell service where I live, while where I live has
> >>> everything else I need. Plus, I prefer wires, so that less radiated
> >>> energy has an opportunity to invade my body uninvited.
> >>>
> >>> KDE3 was, and remains, to many, the 2nd best desktop environment,
> >>> trailing only IBM's WPS. Calling KDE4 KDE at all, at least through
> >>> the latest GM release, is little short of an abomination to a _lot_
> >>> of experienced KDE3 users.
> >>>
> >>> It's hard to believe the amount of mailing list traffic just this
> >>> one single subject has generated across the panoply of KDE4
> >>> incarnations in the popular distros including it in place of KDE3.
> >>
> >> While I like some of KDE 4, if I could just stick with KDE 3, I
> >> would do just that. KDE 3 works for me and I am already used to
> >> using it as well. KDE 4 doesn't, at least not yet.
> >>
> >> I think KDE 4 should have been something different too. KDE 3
> >> should have been maintained longer EVEN IF KDE 4 was going to
> >> replace KDE 3. People on the Gentoo lists mentioned the same thing.
> >> It's not a drop in replacement or a upgrade. It's a whole new
> >> thing. It's not a "new" thing like M$ claims theirs to be either.
> >> Their new thing sucks with a new shine on the front. lol
> >>
> >> I sincerely hope KDE does a better job with KDE 5. I have read
> >> where several people have switched away form KDE because of the way
> >> this was done. KDE 3 was dropped before KDE 4 was even off to a
> >> good stable start. At least that is my opinion anyway. For me, KDE
> >> 4 is still not ready.
> >>
> >> Dale
> >
> > The excuse is that KDE doesn't have the resources to both maintain
> > KDE3 and develop KDE4. That's a copout. Normal people, faced with
> > such an artificial dilemma, would conclude that the development has
> > to be sacrificed, or continued on a back burner, to avoid the
> > inevitable result of pulling the rug out from under users, with no
> > real replacement available.
> >
> > The reason a different decision was made is that the development
> > team, in a terminal case of hubris, took the attitude that they work
> > for nothing, and therefore are in a position to enjoy their hobby
> > with no thought of what people want. Their attitude is wrong because
> > they have, by dint of having produced an excellent desktop (KDE3)
> > achieved a dominant position in the Linux desktop market, and then
> > betrayed their users who, it turns out, DO have an alternative.
> >
> > And no, forcing "The Future" on people who are content with dealing
> > with the present and letting The Future arrive at its own pace is not
> > what anybody anticipated or will tolerate, even for cool stuff.
> >
> > And it isn't as if KDE3 would not have profited from some work. If
> > they felt underemployed, they might have, as others have suggested,
> > taken a good look at the OS/2 Workplace.
>
> I think they should have looked at it this was as well. If you own a
> business that depends on a stable KDE desktop, where are you now? KDE
> 3 is not supported by KDE anymore. KDE 4 is still a work in progress
> and for me at least, isn't usable yet. So, if I had a business and
> needed a dependable desktop, I'd be looking for something else, not
> KDE.
>
> I'm a Gentoo user and since KDE dropped KDE 3, they are dropping it as
> well. It is being moved over to layman but it is no longer supported
> by the Gentoo devs. Some packages are already being removed because of
> a security bug or they no longer compile.
>
> So the choices are, keep a unsupported KDE 3 around or a somewhat
> unusable KDE 4 or switch to something else. This makes Gnome, Fluxbox
> and some other DMs start to look better when faces with those options.
> Nothing is perfect but I am sure this could have been handled a lot
> better. It's not like KDE was born yesterday.
>
> Dale

Interesting to speculate on what the major distros will do in the short
term, and what Novell will do about its enterprise product. As for KDE,
this may be a wakeup call with even a wider meaning -- they anyway need
to think about the need to ride herd (gently, of course) on the
activities (Uh! that word) of developers who think anything they turn out
is acceptable.

--
Stan Goodman
Qiryat Tiv'on
Israel
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Re: In KDE4, to set a different background for each of the multiple desktops

2009-12-23T13:59:49Z

James Loughner wrote:
>
> Nobody is stopping you from staying with 3.5, infact I think the Suse
> Enterprise 10.0 distro is supported out until 2017 of course you get
> nothing new but they will fix the bugs and you do have to pay. Or maybe
> all the 3.5 lovers can get together and pay some group or company to
> support 3.5 forever or at least as long as you are willing to pay for it.
>
> Jim
>

Actually, they are. I use Gentoo. Gentoo doesn't keep packages around
when they are not supported upstream and have either a security problem
or fail to compile. KDE 3 has been dropped by KDE and Gentoo has done
the same. So that is not correct, I am being stopped from using KDE 3,
at least a maintained version of it. I get to watch KDE 3 fall apart
piece by piece.

No, I have no need to switch distros either.

Dale

:-) :-)
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Re: In KDE4, to set a different background for each of the multiple desktops

2009-12-23T13:52:15Z

Stan Goodman wrote:

> At 23:08:36 on Wednesday Wednesday 23 December 2009, Dale
> <rdalek1967@...> wrote:
>
>> Felix Miata wrote:
>>
>>> On 2009/12/23 14:45 (GMT-0500) James Loughner composed:
>>>
>>>> Stan Goodman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Right you are. I will continue to examine that facility, which I
>>>>> currently regard as useless FOR ME.
>>>>>
>>>> LOL It is useless to you because you have not yet seen the light.
>>>>
>>> As many won't, since it's hidden in an unintuitive maze.
>>>
>>>
>>>> After all who needs microwave ovens or cell phones??
>>>>
>>> If you want the healthiest possible cooked food, you don't cook it in
>>> a microwave oven.
>>>
>>> There is no cell service where I live, while where I live has
>>> everything else I need. Plus, I prefer wires, so that less radiated
>>> energy has an opportunity to invade my body uninvited.
>>>
>>> KDE3 was, and remains, to many, the 2nd best desktop environment,
>>> trailing only IBM's WPS. Calling KDE4 KDE at all, at least through
>>> the latest GM release, is little short of an abomination to a _lot_
>>> of experienced KDE3 users.
>>>
>>> It's hard to believe the amount of mailing list traffic just this one
>>> single subject has generated across the panoply of KDE4 incarnations
>>> in the popular distros including it in place of KDE3.
>>>
>> While I like some of KDE 4, if I could just stick with KDE 3, I would
>> do just that. KDE 3 works for me and I am already used to using it as
>> well. KDE 4 doesn't, at least not yet.
>>
>> I think KDE 4 should have been something different too. KDE 3 should
>> have been maintained longer EVEN IF KDE 4 was going to replace KDE 3.
>> People on the Gentoo lists mentioned the same thing. It's not a drop
>> in replacement or a upgrade. It's a whole new thing. It's not a "new"
>> thing like M$ claims theirs to be either. Their new thing sucks with a
>> new shine on the front. lol
>>
>> I sincerely hope KDE does a better job with KDE 5. I have read where
>> several people have switched away form KDE because of the way this was
>> done. KDE 3 was dropped before KDE 4 was even off to a good stable
>> start. At least that is my opinion anyway. For me, KDE 4 is still not
>> ready.
>>
>> Dale
>>
>
> The excuse is that KDE doesn't have the resources to both maintain KDE3
> and develop KDE4. That's a copout. Normal people, faced with such an
> artificial dilemma, would conclude that the development has to be
> sacrificed, or continued on a back burner, to avoid the inevitable result
> of pulling the rug out from under users, with no real replacement
> available.
>
> The reason a different decision was made is that the development team, in
> a terminal case of hubris, took the attitude that they work for nothing,
> and therefore are in a position to enjoy their hobby with no thought of
> what people want. Their attitude is wrong because they have, by dint of
> having produced an excellent desktop (KDE3) achieved a dominant position
> in the Linux desktop market, and then betrayed their users who, it turns
> out, DO have an alternative.
>
> And no, forcing "The Future" on people who are content with dealing with
> the present and letting The Future arrive at its own pace is not what
> anybody anticipated or will tolerate, even for cool stuff.
>
> And it isn't as if KDE3 would not have profited from some work. If they
> felt underemployed, they might have, as others have suggested, taken a
> good look at the OS/2 Workplace.
>
>

I think they should have looked at it this was as well. If you own a
business that depends on a stable KDE desktop, where are you now? KDE 3
is not supported by KDE anymore. KDE 4 is still a work in progress and
for me at least, isn't usable yet. So, if I had a business and needed a
dependable desktop, I'd be looking for something else, not KDE.

I'm a Gentoo user and since KDE dropped KDE 3, they are dropping it as
well. It is being moved over to layman but it is no longer supported by
the Gentoo devs. Some packages are already being removed because of a
security bug or they no longer compile.

So the choices are, keep a unsupported KDE 3 around or a somewhat
unusable KDE 4 or switch to something else. This makes Gnome, Fluxbox
and some other DMs start to look better when faces with those options.
Nothing is perfect but I am sure this could have been handled a lot
better. It's not like KDE was born yesterday.

Dale

:-) :-)
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Re: In KDE4, to set a different background for each of the multiple desktops

2009-12-23T13:36:26Z

At 23:08:36 on Wednesday Wednesday 23 December 2009, Dale
<rdalek1967@...> wrote:

> Felix Miata wrote:
> > On 2009/12/23 14:45 (GMT-0500) James Loughner composed:
> >> Stan Goodman wrote:
> >>> Right you are. I will continue to examine that facility, which I
> >>> currently regard as useless FOR ME.
> >>
> >> LOL It is useless to you because you have not yet seen the light.
> >
> > As many won't, since it's hidden in an unintuitive maze.
> >
> >> After all who needs microwave ovens or cell phones??
> >
> > If you want the healthiest possible cooked food, you don't cook it in
> > a microwave oven.
> >
> > There is no cell service where I live, while where I live has
> > everything else I need. Plus, I prefer wires, so that less radiated
> > energy has an opportunity to invade my body uninvited.
> >
> > KDE3 was, and remains, to many, the 2nd best desktop environment,
> > trailing only IBM's WPS. Calling KDE4 KDE at all, at least through
> > the latest GM release, is little short of an abomination to a _lot_
> > of experienced KDE3 users.
> >
> > It's hard to believe the amount of mailing list traffic just this one
> > single subject has generated across the panoply of KDE4 incarnations
> > in the popular distros including it in place of KDE3.
>
> While I like some of KDE 4, if I could just stick with KDE 3, I would
> do just that. KDE 3 works for me and I am already used to using it as
> well. KDE 4 doesn't, at least not yet.
>
> I think KDE 4 should have been something different too. KDE 3 should
> have been maintained longer EVEN IF KDE 4 was going to replace KDE 3.
> People on the Gentoo lists mentioned the same thing. It's not a drop
> in replacement or a upgrade. It's a whole new thing. It's not a "new"
> thing like M$ claims theirs to be either. Their new thing sucks with a
> new shine on the front. lol
>
> I sincerely hope KDE does a better job with KDE 5. I have read where
> several people have switched away form KDE because of the way this was
> done. KDE 3 was dropped before KDE 4 was even off to a good stable
> start. At least that is my opinion anyway. For me, KDE 4 is still not
> ready.
>
> Dale

The excuse is that KDE doesn't have the resources to both maintain KDE3
and develop KDE4. That's a copout. Normal people, faced with such an
artificial dilemma, would conclude that the development has to be
sacrificed, or continued on a back burner, to avoid the inevitable result
of pulling the rug out from under users, with no real replacement
available.

The reason a different decision was made is that the development team, in
a terminal case of hubris, took the attitude that they work for nothing,
and therefore are in a position to enjoy their hobby with no thought of
what people want. Their attitude is wrong because they have, by dint of
having produced an excellent desktop (KDE3) achieved a dominant position
in the Linux desktop market, and then betrayed their users who, it turns
out, DO have an alternative.

And no, forcing "The Future" on people who are content with dealing with
the present and letting The Future arrive at its own pace is not what
anybody anticipated or will tolerate, even for cool stuff.

And it isn't as if KDE3 would not have profited from some work. If they
felt underemployed, they might have, as others have suggested, taken a
good look at the OS/2 Workplace.

--
Stan Goodman
Qiryat Tiv'on
Israel
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Re: In KDE4, to set a different background for each of the multiple desktops

2009-12-23T13:29:49Z

On Wednesday 23 December 2009 21:20:39 James Loughner wrote:

> Nobody is stopping you from staying with 3.5, infact I think the
> Suse Enterprise 10.0 distro is supported out until 2017 of course you
> get nothing new but they will fix the bugs and you do have to pay. Or
> maybe all the 3.5 lovers can get together and pay some group or
> company to support 3.5 forever or at least as long as you are willing
> to pay for it.
>
> Jim

Too late. Trinity has happened.

--
Best Regards:
Derrick.
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Re: In KDE4, to set a different background for each of the multiple desktops

2009-12-23T13:20:39Z

First off nothing in computers is intuitive. We all had to learn it at
some time. Remember the start button that shut the computer down. LOL
Really, right clicking on the desktop is not in any way intuitive you
have to learn that.

For me I held out on even trying KDE 4 until Suse 11.2 was released. I
only relented because there was no longer any support for 10.2 and KDE
3.5 which is what I was running. After less then a month of use I'd
never go back to KDE 3.5. Suse 11.2 seems rock solid on my hardware and
runs at least 30% faster and boots 4 times faster. Though I did not set
up 11.2 the same as I did 10.2 I see no reason I could not do so. But I
decided to use the new features to improve the way I worked instead of
doing it the same old way. I'm very happy so far. And yes it took a bit
of time and effort and experimentation to get things the way I wanted
but it took that to get 3.5 the way I wanted it too when I moved from
Windows.

Nobody is stopping you from staying with 3.5, infact I think the Suse
Enterprise 10.0 distro is supported out until 2017 of course you get
nothing new but they will fix the bugs and you do have to pay. Or maybe
all the 3.5 lovers can get together and pay some group or company to
support 3.5 forever or at least as long as you are willing to pay for it.

Jim

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Re: In KDE4, to set a different background for each of the multiple desktops

2009-12-23T13:20:06Z

At 22:25:16 on Wednesday Wednesday 23 December 2009, Felix Miata
<mrmazda@...> wrote:
> There is no cell service where I live, while where I live has
> everything else I need. Plus, I prefer wires, so that less radiated
> energy has an opportunity to invade my body uninvited.

Where can you possibly be living? Is there a place on the planet where
there is no cellphone service? Is your latitude greater than abs85deg?

--
Stan Goodman
Qiryat Tiv'on
Israel
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Re: In KDE4, to set a different background for each of the multiple desktops

2009-12-23T13:08:36Z

Felix Miata wrote:

> On 2009/12/23 14:45 (GMT-0500) James Loughner composed:
>
>
>> Stan Goodman wrote:
>>
>
>
>>> Right you are. I will continue to examine that facility, which I currently
>>> regard as useless FOR ME.
>>>
>
>
>> LOL It is useless to you because you have not yet seen the light.
>>
>
> As many won't, since it's hidden in an unintuitive maze.
>
>
>> After all who needs microwave ovens or cell phones??
>>
>
> If you want the healthiest possible cooked food, you don't cook it in a
> microwave oven.
>
> There is no cell service where I live, while where I live has everything else
> I need. Plus, I prefer wires, so that less radiated energy has an opportunity
> to invade my body uninvited.
>
> KDE3 was, and remains, to many, the 2nd best desktop environment, trailing
> only IBM's WPS. Calling KDE4 KDE at all, at least through the latest GM
> release, is little short of an abomination to a _lot_ of experienced KDE3 users.
>
> It's hard to believe the amount of mailing list traffic just this one single
> subject has generated across the panoply of KDE4 incarnations in the popular
> distros including it in place of KDE3.
>

While I like some of KDE 4, if I could just stick with KDE 3, I would do
just that. KDE 3 works for me and I am already used to using it as
well. KDE 4 doesn't, at least not yet.

I think KDE 4 should have been something different too. KDE 3 should
have been maintained longer EVEN IF KDE 4 was going to replace KDE 3.
People on the Gentoo lists mentioned the same thing. It's not a drop in
replacement or a upgrade. It's a whole new thing. It's not a "new"
thing like M$ claims theirs to be either. Their new thing sucks with a
new shine on the front. lol

I sincerely hope KDE does a better job with KDE 5. I have read where
several people have switched away form KDE because of the way this was
done. KDE 3 was dropped before KDE 4 was even off to a good stable
start. At least that is my opinion anyway. For me, KDE 4 is still not
ready.

Dale

:-) :-)
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Re: In KDE4, to set a different background for each of the multiple desktops

2009-12-23T12:39:30Z

Felix Miata wrote:

<snip>
>
> If you want the healthiest possible cooked food, you don't cook it in a
> microwave oven.

While it's off-topic, why do you believe this to be true?

--
Tony Alfrey
tonyalfrey@...
"I'd Rather Be Sailing"
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Re: In KDE4, to set a different background for each of the multiple desktops

2009-12-23T12:25:16Z

On 2009/12/23 14:45 (GMT-0500) James Loughner composed:

> Stan Goodman wrote:

>> Right you are. I will continue to examine that facility, which I currently
>> regard as useless FOR ME.

> LOL It is useless to you because you have not yet seen the light.

As many won't, since it's hidden in an unintuitive maze.

> After all who needs microwave ovens or cell phones??

If you want the healthiest possible cooked food, you don't cook it in a
microwave oven.

There is no cell service where I live, while where I live has everything else
I need. Plus, I prefer wires, so that less radiated energy has an opportunity
to invade my body uninvited.

KDE3 was, and remains, to many, the 2nd best desktop environment, trailing
only IBM's WPS. Calling KDE4 KDE at all, at least through the latest GM
release, is little short of an abomination to a _lot_ of experienced KDE3 users.

It's hard to believe the amount of mailing list traffic just this one single
subject has generated across the panoply of KDE4 incarnations in the popular
distros including it in place of KDE3.
--
" We have no government armed with power capable of
contending with human passions unbridled by morality and
religion." John Adams, 2nd US President

Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
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Re: In KDE4, to set a different background for each of the multiple desktops

2009-12-23T12:22:32Z

At 21:45:14 on Wednesday Wednesday 23 December 2009, James Loughner
<jwrl@...> wrote:
> On 12/23/2009 01:09 PM, Stan Goodman wrote:
> > Right you are. I will continue to examine that facility, which I
> > currently regard as useless FOR ME.
>
> LOL It is useless to you because you have not yet seen the light.

Or maybe it is actually of no value to me. What happened to different
people operating differently and modeling their reality differently?

> After all who needs microwave ovens or cell phones??

I need a microwave oven, because it is the easiest and least demanding way
for a man living along (widower) to feed himself properly. It saves me an
important amount of time and effort.

I do not need a cellphone, and don't have one, because there is literally
nothing I would need to transmit to another person that won't wait until
I get home or find a public telephone. In fact that statement is probably
true of 80% of the owners of cellphones. Years ago, the same people who
walk about with the cellphone permanently held to their ear used to walk
about with what was called a "ghetto blaster" to their ear, playing
bad "music", but you never see anybody anymore with a "ghetto blaster".
That might tell you something. Or maybe not.

The point (which I used to think was obvious) is that different people
have different needs and different ways of solving their problems. The
KDE4 team, on the other hand, seems to agree with you that all are
created not only equal, but even identical.

--
Stan Goodman
Qiryat Tiv'on
Israel
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Re: In KDE4, to set a different background for each of the multiple desktops

2009-12-23T11:45:14Z

On 12/23/2009 01:09 PM, Stan Goodman wrote:
>
> Right you are. I will continue to examine that facility, which I currently
> regard as useless FOR ME.
>

LOL It is useless to you because you have not yet seen the light.

After all who needs microwave ovens or cell phones??

Jim

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Re: In KDE4, to set a different background for each of the multiple desktops

2009-12-23T10:09:03Z

At 19:18:18 on Wednesday Wednesday 23 December 2009, James Loughner
<jwrl@...> wrote:
> I'm confused at what you are calling shower curtains??

Sorry about that. It was my annoyance coming through, and nobody on the
list needs to know about that.

> I run Suse 11.2.
> I think what you are calling shower curtains are folder views. ie a
> plasmoid (widget) that shows a view into a directory. If so just click
> the cashew at the top right select unlock now you should see a tool bar
> at the side of the widget. there you can move rotate, resize, configure
> or remove the widget.

Right you are. I will continue to examine that facility, which I currently
regard as useless FOR ME. Perhaps I will stumble on a way they can help
me. But I doubt it. My real complaint is that there doesn't seem to have
been any interest at KDE in whether the bulk of users needs or wants
them, and this complication was dumped on everyone unawares, with no
thought of a Plan-B for those who would prefer to opt out.

> You can add widgets including folder views by selecting add from the
> cashew's menu once the it is unlocked.Locking locks the widgets in
> place. You can bring the widgets to the foreground by the show
> dashboard control.

Different Strokes for Different Folks. I believe in that fervently. That
is harder for a user to implement in a radically different Desktop.

> I find KDE 4 much much better and more flexibly then 3.5. Once I found
> the cashew all else was pretty intuitive just read the selections on
> the menus and setup screens. You can have a activity set up to do
> program development on one graphics on another multimedia on another
> etc. switching "desktops" is actually just switching activities. In 3.5
> the desktop was the same for all "desktops" just different backgrounds.
> With KDE 4.x each "desktop" can be unique for it's activity.

It doesn't look like a cashew to me, but that isn't what we are talking
about. For that matter, the word "Plasma" already has a meaning, with
which it is difficult to connect with anything I see in KDE4.

> My 2 cents...
...is worth as much as anyone else's.

> Jim
>
> On 12/23/2009 08:52 AM, Stan Goodman wrote:
> > At 13:46:18 on Wednesday Wednesday 23 December 2009, Duncan
> >
> > <1i5t5.duncan@...> wrote:
> >> Stan Goodman posted on Wed, 23 Dec 2009 00:13:50 +0200 as excerpted:
> >>> In KDE3 this was possible. The background-installation process is
> >>> very similar in KDE4, but the result is that the same background is
> >>> displayed in each of the desktops. Is this a new limitation, or am
> >>> I missing something. I would be grateful for this information, and
> >>> any other that will help me with the kind of desktop that I have
> >>> had in the past, and would like to have again.
> >>
> >> In 4.3 it's possible, but non-obvious. From what I've read, 4.4
> >> makes the process more discoverable as just one of the many plasma
> >> improvements that are said to be included.
> >>
> >> The key in 4.3 is to realized that in kde4, the backgrounds are
> >> attached to activities, not desktops. This is rather more obvious
> >> in multi- monitor setups than it is otherwise, because each monitor
> >> gets a separate activity and therefore a separate background, but it
> >> quickly becomes obvious if you use multiple activities on a single
> >> monitor setup, as well.
> >>
> >> Activities... are an interesting concept. The idea is to be able to
> >> group a bunch of plasmoids into a single task appropriate activity,
> >> then switch activities when you switch tasks. It /is/ a neat
> >> concept, but it /does/ take some getting used to.
> >>
> >> Originally and as designed, activities were supposed to be entirely
> >> separate from virtual desktops, so there was no particular link
> >> between a virtual desktop and an activity, and therefore no
> >> particular link between a desktop and the background, since that's
> >> part of the activity, not part of the desktop. However, as kde4 was
> >> more widely deployed, the developers realized that the virtual
> >> desktop metaphor was already embedded in people's heads and
> >> work-styles, while activities were new, and many many people
> >> strongly preferred that they be linked. Thus, in 4.3, a new option
> >> was added, different activity for each desktop. Unfortunately, in
> >> 4.3, this option was only available from the configure plasma menu,
> >> which only shows up when the activities are zoomed out, and activity
> >> zooming doesn't seem to be as natively intuitive as the developers
> >> had hoped. In fact, it can be quite scary for some, if they don't
> >> know what's going on, so if it happened accidentally, they may be
> >> rather inclined to avoid the action that triggered it in the future.
> >> Of course, that means people aren't as likely to discover the
> >> options behind zoomed activities, including this one.
> >>
> >> So 4.4 makes that option (and others only accessible thru activity
> >> zooming in 4.3) more accessible from a number of other places.
> >> (Since I'm not running the 4.4 betas yet, I've only read of it, I
> >> don't know the details.) In fact, by ensuring that all
> >> zoomed-out-activity options are available elsewhere in the UI, 4.4
> >> is said to do away with the necessity of zooming activities to get
> >> to them entirely, tho some people like the zooming, once they get
> >> used to it, and it should remain an option, perhaps like the desktop
> >> grid effect option.
> >>
> >> Meanwhile, how does one access this in 4.3? Simple. Click on the
> >> desktop "cashew" (aka toolbox, that little plasma symbol), and
> >> select zoom out. Now you have access to activity options such as
> >> creating new ones, etc. On the popup menu that should appear at the
> >> top left, select plasma options, and a dialog should popup with a
> >> couple of... what else, plasma options. =:^) One of these is the
> >> separate activity per desktop option that should enable what you're
> >> after.
> >
> > I've given it a shot. For the benefit of any other readers, I should
> > mention that what you have written as 'elect "Plasma Options"' Should
> > read 'select Configure Plasma" (no doubt a simple typo). Then, after
> > selecting "Separate activity per desktop", six distinct shower
> > curtains popped up, all without any identification, so that one
> > doesn't know after performing an "Activity" which desktop he has
> > Acted upon. That can't be right.
> >
> > Leaving that aside, I assumed that now, in each shower curtain, I
> > must click MB2 to choose and install a background image. But in fact
> > that click does nothing. I fiddled around a bit, which caused one of
> > the six windows to occupy the entire screen, after which more
> > fiddling made it small again, but there were only four of them, not
> > six as before. Now it was possible to MB2 on any one of the four, and
> > set a background. I felt rewarded for 4 out of 6. But I didn't know
> > how to find the remaining two, nor how to return to normal
> > (non-"Activity") operation, so I rebooted.
> >
> > What I have now is three (not four) virtual desktops with presentable
> > backgrounds, and three with the default background (Bubbly
> > Chartreuse). The shower curtain appears only on desktop #1, which is
> > good, but I would like to dump it too. And I would like to take
> > another crack at setting a good background on the three that don't
> > have one.
> >
> > My question at this point is: Should I begin the process again from
> > scratch according to your directions? Or is there a way to bring up
> > the former set of Activities as it was, with six windows? I ask
> > because I don't know if I am leaving two (or three) Activities in
> > existence but uncompleted, that may come back to bite me in the
> > future.
> >
> > But it it is going to leave me with shower curtains on each desktop,
> > I don't think I'm interested. Can I hide them in some way, and go
> > about my business in the way I have until now enjoyed?
>
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Re: In KDE4, to set a different background for each of the multiple desktops

2009-12-23T09:18:18Z

I'm confused at what you are calling shower curtains??

I run Suse 11.2.
I think what you are calling shower curtains are folder views. ie a
plasmoid (widget) that shows a view into a directory. If so just click
the cashew at the top right select unlock now you should see a tool bar
at the side of the widget. there you can move rotate, resize, configure
or remove the widget.

You can add widgets including folder views by selecting add from the
cashew's menu once the it is unlocked.Locking locks the widgets in
place. You can bring the widgets to the foreground by the show dashboard
control.

I find KDE 4 much much better and more flexibly then 3.5. Once I found
the cashew all else was pretty intuitive just read the selections on the
menus and setup screens. You can have a activity set up to do program
development on one graphics on another multimedia on another etc.
switching "desktops" is actually just switching activities. In 3.5 the
desktop was the same for all "desktops" just different backgrounds. With
KDE 4.x each "desktop" can be unique for it's activity.

My 2 cents

Jim

On 12/23/2009 08:52 AM, Stan Goodman wrote:

> At 13:46:18 on Wednesday Wednesday 23 December 2009, Duncan
> <1i5t5.duncan@...> wrote:
>
>> Stan Goodman posted on Wed, 23 Dec 2009 00:13:50 +0200 as excerpted:
>>
>>> In KDE3 this was possible. The background-installation process is
>>> very similar in KDE4, but the result is that the same background is
>>> displayed in each of the desktops. Is this a new limitation, or am I
>>> missing something. I would be grateful for this information, and any
>>> other that will help me with the kind of desktop that I have had in
>>> the past, and would like to have again.
>>>
>> In 4.3 it's possible, but non-obvious. From what I've read, 4.4 makes
>> the process more discoverable as just one of the many plasma
>> improvements that are said to be included.
>>
>> The key in 4.3 is to realized that in kde4, the backgrounds are
>> attached to activities, not desktops. This is rather more obvious in
>> multi- monitor setups than it is otherwise, because each monitor gets a
>> separate activity and therefore a separate background, but it quickly
>> becomes obvious if you use multiple activities on a single monitor
>> setup, as well.
>>
>> Activities... are an interesting concept. The idea is to be able to
>> group a bunch of plasmoids into a single task appropriate activity,
>> then switch activities when you switch tasks. It /is/ a neat concept,
>> but it /does/ take some getting used to.
>>
>> Originally and as designed, activities were supposed to be entirely
>> separate from virtual desktops, so there was no particular link between
>> a virtual desktop and an activity, and therefore no particular link
>> between a desktop and the background, since that's part of the
>> activity, not part of the desktop. However, as kde4 was more widely
>> deployed, the developers realized that the virtual desktop metaphor was
>> already embedded in people's heads and work-styles, while activities
>> were new, and many many people strongly preferred that they be linked.
>> Thus, in 4.3, a new option was added, different activity for each
>> desktop. Unfortunately, in 4.3, this option was only available from the
>> configure plasma menu, which only shows up when the activities are
>> zoomed out, and activity zooming doesn't seem to be as natively
>> intuitive as the developers had hoped. In fact, it can be quite scary
>> for some, if they don't know what's going on, so if it happened
>> accidentally, they may be rather inclined to avoid the action that
>> triggered it in the future. Of course, that means people aren't as
>> likely to discover the options behind zoomed activities, including this
>> one.
>>
>> So 4.4 makes that option (and others only accessible thru activity
>> zooming in 4.3) more accessible from a number of other places. (Since
>> I'm not running the 4.4 betas yet, I've only read of it, I don't know
>> the details.) In fact, by ensuring that all zoomed-out-activity
>> options are available elsewhere in the UI, 4.4 is said to do away with
>> the necessity of zooming activities to get to them entirely, tho some
>> people like the zooming, once they get used to it, and it should remain
>> an option, perhaps like the desktop grid effect option.
>>
>> Meanwhile, how does one access this in 4.3? Simple. Click on the
>> desktop "cashew" (aka toolbox, that little plasma symbol), and select
>> zoom out. Now you have access to activity options such as creating new
>> ones, etc. On the popup menu that should appear at the top left,
>> select plasma options, and a dialog should popup with a couple of...
>> what else, plasma options. =:^) One of these is the separate activity
>> per desktop option that should enable what you're after.
>>
> I've given it a shot. For the benefit of any other readers, I should
> mention that what you have written as 'elect "Plasma Options"' Should
> read 'select Configure Plasma" (no doubt a simple typo). Then, after
> selecting "Separate activity per desktop", six distinct shower curtains
> popped up, all without any identification, so that one doesn't know after
> performing an "Activity" which desktop he has Acted upon. That can't be
> right.
>
> Leaving that aside, I assumed that now, in each shower curtain, I must
> click MB2 to choose and install a background image. But in fact that
> click does nothing. I fiddled around a bit, which caused one of the six
> windows to occupy the entire screen, after which more fiddling made it
> small again, but there were only four of them, not six as before. Now it
> was possible to MB2 on any one of the four, and set a background. I felt
> rewarded for 4 out of 6. But I didn't know how to find the remaining two,
> nor how to return to normal (non-"Activity") operation, so I rebooted.
>
> What I have now is three (not four) virtual desktops with presentable
> backgrounds, and three with the default background (Bubbly Chartreuse).
> The shower curtain appears only on desktop #1, which is good, but I would
> like to dump it too. And I would like to take another crack at setting a
> good background on the three that don't have one.
>
> My question at this point is: Should I begin the process again from
> scratch according to your directions? Or is there a way to bring up the
> former set of Activities as it was, with six windows? I ask because I
> don't know if I am leaving two (or three) Activities in existence but
> uncompleted, that may come back to bite me in the future.
>
> But it it is going to leave me with shower curtains on each desktop, I
> don't think I'm interested. Can I hide them in some way, and go about my
> business in the way I have until now enjoyed?
>
>

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Re: In KDE4, to set a different background for each of the multiple desktops

2009-12-23T08:33:31Z

Stan Goodman posted on Wed, 23 Dec 2009 18:15:44 +0200 as excerpted:

> For example, I suspect think if I want a second panel, I would have to
> install it for each desktop individually, and to maintain each one
> separately. Is that a good guess?

It's a reasonable guess, yes, and was my guess as well. But it turns out
not to be the case. The panels remain the same on all activities.
Actually, I'd love an option to associate panels with activities, too --
with a corresponding option to simply clone that panel config I have over
there [pointing to it with the mouse], but it's not there yet, at least
not with kde 4.3.

--
Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman

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Re: How much change? was Re: In KDE4, to set a different background for each of the multiple desktops

2009-12-23T08:28:04Z

Pablo Sanchez posted on Wed, 23 Dec 2009 10:14:37 -0500 as excerpted:

> I believe the amount of change per release is very subjective. If you
> have too little change, it's difficult to advance a product to the next
> phase. If you have too much change, you need to ensure processes are in
> place to move people forward.

Indeed.

The example that came up the other day was MS with progman, the MS
Windows 3.x shell. They carried it forward into W95 along with fileman,
albeit without longfilename support, so people using it were stuck with
8.3, thus encouraging people to switch to the newer tools over time.

By contrast, kde4 dumped the desktop directory metaphor and only brought
it back in the form of the folderview desktop type after kicking and
screaming and bad reviews from the users. Having that one single bit of
familiarity alone would have likely made the transition to kde4 much
smoother for many people, and along about kde 4.5 or 4.6, after just
about everybody was smoothly transitioned, /then/ they could have dropped
the folderview desktop type if desired.

/Most/ folks will eventually migrate, given the improved tools and the
continuing opportunity to do so over time, but they'll do it when /they/
are ready, and don't like being forced into it. MS recognized that with
MS Windows 95 and it significantly strengthened their monopoly on the
desktop. KDE failed to recognize that, and has paid a significant price
for it.

--
Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman

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Re: In KDE4, to set a different background for each of the multiple desktops

2009-12-23T08:15:44Z

At 16:57:40 on Wednesday Wednesday 23 December 2009, Duncan
<1i5t5.duncan@...> wrote:

> Stan Goodman posted on Wed, 23 Dec 2009 14:57:16 +0200 as excerpted:
> > I will definitely try this, and I am grateful for your advice,
> > although the explanation of the mechanics only emphasizes for me how
> > much I want to dump the bother of Activities to the extent that this
> > is possible. Can I hide the translucent shower curtain?
>
> This translucent "window that fills much of the screen", aka "shower
> curtain"...
>
> Now /I'm/ the one confused. I'm not quite sure what you are talking
> about... I'm sure it's a terminology thing, but I just don't quite get
> the visualization you're trying to portray -- maybe I'm thinking too
> literally, or not literally enough, I don't know but it's not coming --
> and as a result, I'm lost as to how to help or comment further...
>
> Meanwhile, from your :52 post, it appears you've found the zooming...
> but don't find it intuitive at all... which as I said, seems to have
> taken the devs by surprise, the number of people who find this
> interface not only unintuitive, but unpleasant and even scary, as to
> the devs, it must have seemed the most natural thing in the world,
> given the extent to which they rely on it thru kde 4.3 at least.
>
> FWIW, I'm not the only one to observe that while the changes might
> eventually be welcomed, it seems kde/plasma took it too far too fast,
> with the change being so great it's very uncomfortable for many/most
> people. Had they gone somewhat slower, perhaps in 3-5 years, people
> could have been prepared for this, if the changes were taken a single
> much smaller step at a time.

I could not agree more inthusastically. I have said many times elsewhere
that "Great Leaps Forward" generally end with a fall flat on the face by
the leaper. Mao Tse Tung discovered that too. Nothing beats an
incremental program of advance.

As you say, some/many of the changes may be accepted if delivered more
gradually. Some, I think, may be found superfluous. In general, the guys
need a short course in feeling out the user base about what is desired,
and a talk about introducing innovations just because they are "cool".
They need to be called back to earth, where the users are.

I do not believe that it is a matter only of acclimating the users.
Example:

Believe it or not, I have, by dint of enough fumbling, managed to install
separate images on all six virtual desktops. In the process, it is true
that I have learned a bit about the way Activities work. But I also that
not only the backgrounds are tied to the virtual desktops, but everything
else about them. For example, I suspect think if I want a second panel, I
would have to install it for each desktop individually, and to maintain
each one separately. Is that a good guess? If so, an enormous array of
new management duties have bee created to replace the simplicity of KDE3.
Worth it? Not for me. In KDE3 I have all my "Activities", as they would
be called in KDE4 in a second panel at the top of the screen. Nearly
everything I want to do has an icon there, and I can do those things in
whatever desktop happens to be free. It is simple. There is a virtue to
simplicity. Most people use KDE(3) because it is relatively easy to
understand and to operate. People with a day job don't need or want to
have to embark on an extensive education program.

Incremental change would also have given an opportunity to develop an
understanding that KDE exists for for its users, not for the developers
(even if they are working for nothing, which they like to point out) to
devise cute tricks that nobody wants.

Given the philosophy of the development team, I doubt that KDE4 will ever
make the cut to enterprise SuSE, regardless of what tweaking can be made
to it in the next two years or so; I think it is fundamentally flawed.

Thank you...

--
Stan Goodman
Qiryat Tiv'on
Israel
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Re: In KDE4, to set a different background for each of the multiple desktops

2009-12-23T07:47:22Z

Stan Goodman posted on Wed, 23 Dec 2009 15:52:22 +0200 as excerpted:

> At 13:46:18 on Wednesday Wednesday 23 December 2009, Duncan
> <1i5t5.duncan@...> wrote:
>> Stan Goodman posted on Wed, 23 Dec 2009 00:13:50 +0200 as excerpted:

> I've given it a shot. For the benefit of any other readers, I should
> mention that what you have written as 'elect "Plasma Options"' Should
> read 'select Configure Plasma" (no doubt a simple typo).

Yeah, I wasn't actually zoomed out at the time, so was going from
memory. (Meanwhile, that "elect" I think was your typo, "select" was
what I believe I wrote, and what seems to appear in your quote, as well.
Typos while discussing typos, are we in danger of infinite recursion
here? =:^)

> Then, after
> selecting "Separate activity per desktop", six distinct shower curtains
> popped up, all without any identification, so that one doesn't know
> after performing an "Activity" which desktop he has Acted upon. That
> can't be right.

As referred to in the other post, "shower curtains" isn't the analogy I'd
have chosen, and it's rather confusing to me even now. Hopefully we're
talking about the same thing. I'll choose "panes", I think.

Presumably you had six virtual desktops configured, and each of these
panes aka shower curtains represented one of them (but I see below that
presumption isn't quite right, but stick with this as it's already
written). FWIW, I only run three desktops, here, and keep the same
activities/backgrounds/whatever on each. But I have dual 1920x1200
monitors, too, stacked for 1920x2400 resolution on each desktop. It's
thus likely that I'm running more total resolution on those three
desktops than you are on your six, thus the reason I get by with only
three.

The original intent I believe was to have people add activities as they
needed them. As such, they'd never have six identical or nearly
identical activities shown at once, and they'd be easily visually IDed as
the plasmoids/widgets on each one as well as the background would be
different.

Of course, that all falls apart when activities and desktops are suddenly
linked, especially when someone has six desktops, and only one activity
setup, so now it's duplicated on all six (zoomed out) desktops, with no
real way to identify them.

Presumably, one is supposed to choose one, probably zoom in on it, and
start customizing it. Then when they zoom out, it'll now be distinctive
from the others, and the idea will begin to emerge by visual experience
that they are now each individually customizable.

BTW, there are a total of three zoom levels, fully zoomed in (one
activity displayed), zoomed out once (the middle level), with four
activities displayed in a 2x2=4 grid, and zoomed out twice, with nine
activities displayed in a 3x3=9 grid (possibly, if you fill them out,
there's even a 4th zoom level, 4x4=16 grid, I've never tried enough
activities to see). Presumably when you selected the activity per
desktop option, it zoomed out to the 3x3 grid, since you had six desktops
and thus now six activities. Fiddling around (as quoted below), you then
zoomed in on one of them, but it wasn't clear to you what happened. Then
when you zoomed out again, you only saw four, as you only zoomed out one
step. Had you zoomed out another, you'd have (presumably) seen all six,
with the bottom third of the screen a neutral background, no panes/
activities shown since you only have six and it'd display nine.

> Leaving that aside, I assumed that now, in each shower curtain, I must
> click MB2 to choose and install a background image. But in fact that
> click does nothing. I fiddled around a bit, which caused one of the six
> windows to occupy the entire screen, after which more fiddling made it
> small again, but there were only four of them, not six as before. Now it
> was possible to MB2 on any one of the four, and set a background. I felt
> rewarded for 4 out of 6. But I didn't know how to find the remaining
> two, nor how to return to normal (non-"Activity") operation, so I
> rebooted.

MB2??

> What I have now is three (not four) virtual desktops with presentable
> backgrounds, and three with the default background (Bubbly Chartreuse).
> The shower curtain appears only on desktop #1, which is good, but I
> would like to dump it too. And I would like to take another crack at
> setting a good background on the three that don't have one.

Now I'm confused again. I thought the shower curtain was referring to
the representation of the desktop, one for each, but I guess not...

Maybe you mean... the folderview plasmoid/widget? If it was set to an
empty folder (better known in Linux terms as a directory, "folder"
sounds... MSWormOS-ish), and depending on the plasma theme (oxygen or air
being the default, depending on kde4 version), I could see how that would
appear as a translucent curtain that could be described as a shower
curtain...

If you're talking about some plasmoid (folderview or other), right
clicking on the desktop, or on the cashew, or on a panel, should in most
cases give you a menu. If you clicked on a plasmoid, you may have to
select activity options. Anyway, find unlock widgets, if they are locked.

With the widgets/plasmoids unlocked, you should be able to resize, move,
delete, etc each plasmoid, including the folderview, which I'm now
assuming is your 'shower curtain'. Hovering over the plasmoid should
popup a toolbox to the right or left (depending on where you hover), with
buttons for the various functions.

Note that it's also possible to have a full-desktop-sized folderview in
place of the normal activity. This option is available in desktop
settings (labeled activity options in some cases, instead of desktop
settings). At the top of the dialog, there's a selector for type, either
activity or folderview. If set for folderview, you get a single
folderview covering the entire desktop, instead of an activity, which
would allow multiple plasmoids, including multiple folderviews, if
desired, each set to a different directory.

Meanwhile, now that you know there are two levels of zoom, you should be
able to zoom out twice and get the 3x3=9 grid...

FWIW, if you don't like the zooming, there's an activity changer plasmoid/
widget available.

> My question at this point is: Should I begin the process again from
> scratch according to your directions? Or is there a way to bring up the
> former set of Activities as it was, with six windows? I ask because I
> don't know if I am leaving two (or three) Activities in existence but
> uncompleted, that may come back to bite me in the future.
>
> But it it is going to leave me with shower curtains on each desktop, I
> don't think I'm interested. Can I hide them in some way, and go about my
> business in the way I have until now enjoyed?

Hopefully the above explanations help clarify things a bit. It'll take
some getting used to, perhaps reading some of those tutorials you
mentioned, but over time, you'll probably get more comfortable with it,
and as already mentioned, the UI should be markedly improved with kde
4.4, scheduled for February.

--
Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman

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Re: How much change? was Re: In KDE4, to set a different background for each of the multiple desktops

2009-12-23T07:31:11Z

Am Wednesday 23 December 2009 16:14:37 schrieb Pablo Sanchez:
> Based on the bugs reported on here with KDE 4.3, it was probably
> premature to release (and stop supporting KDE 3.5.10).

right.
3.5.10 was abandoned much too early, IMHO.
not only by the developers (whose motivation to work on somewhat antique
technology is clearly not too great).
the biggest impact on hesitating users, however, was the de facto forced
transition by virtually all major distros.

werner
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How much change? was Re: In KDE4, to set a different background for each of the multiple desktops

2009-12-23T07:14:37Z

[ Comments below, in line ]

On Wednesday 23 December 2009 at 9:57 am, Duncan penned
about "Re: [kde-linux] In KDE4, to set a different background for each of the multiple desktops"

> FWIW, I'm not the only one to observe that while the changes might
> eventually be welcomed, it seems kde/plasma took it too far too
> fast, with the change being so great it's very uncomfortable for
> many/most people. Had they gone somewhat slower, perhaps in 3-5
> years, people could have been prepared for this, if the changes were
> taken a single much smaller step at a time.

Hi,

I believe the amount of change per release is very subjective. If you
have too little change, it's difficult to advance a product to the
next phase. If you have too much change, you need to ensure processes
are in place to move people forward.

We also have different categories of users:

o Early adopters:

They can tolerate crashes and bugs.

o Not so early adopters:

Tolerate some bugs as long as there are work-arounds.

o Users who are okay with re-learning but can't tolerate too many
bugs.

o Users who will always gripe about any changes to their existing
setup.

The latter group is always difficult and usually not solvable.

Based on the bugs reported on here with KDE 4.3, it was probably
premature to release (and stop supporting KDE 3.5.10).

I also know that I have been trying to help KDE (kmail specifically)
but I've been slammed with my own work. :( ... single person company
and all. :)

Cheers,
--
Pablo Sanchez - Blueoak Database Engineering, Inc
Ph: 819.459.1926 Fax: 760.860.5225 (US)

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Re: In KDE4, to set a different background for each of the multiple desktops

2009-12-23T06:57:40Z

Stan Goodman posted on Wed, 23 Dec 2009 14:57:16 +0200 as excerpted:

> I will definitely try this, and I am grateful for your advice, although
> the explanation of the mechanics only emphasizes for me how much I want
> to dump the bother of Activities to the extent that this is possible.
> Can I hide the translucent shower curtain?

This translucent "window that fills much of the screen", aka "shower
curtain"...

Now /I'm/ the one confused. I'm not quite sure what you are talking
about... I'm sure it's a terminology thing, but I just don't quite get
the visualization you're trying to portray -- maybe I'm thinking too
literally, or not literally enough, I don't know but it's not coming --
and as a result, I'm lost as to how to help or comment further...

Meanwhile, from your :52 post, it appears you've found the zooming... but
don't find it intuitive at all... which as I said, seems to have taken
the devs by surprise, the number of people who find this interface not
only unintuitive, but unpleasant and even scary, as to the devs, it must
have seemed the most natural thing in the world, given the extent to
which they rely on it thru kde 4.3 at least.

FWIW, I'm not the only one to observe that while the changes might
eventually be welcomed, it seems kde/plasma took it too far too fast,
with the change being so great it's very uncomfortable for many/most
people. Had they gone somewhat slower, perhaps in 3-5 years, people
could have been prepared for this, if the changes were taken a single
much smaller step at a time.

More in response to the other post...

--
Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman

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