line breaks and broken beams
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line breaks and broken beams
by Werner LEMBERG
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What's the reason that line breaks are by default forbidden if there is a broken beam crossing the bar line, and that you have to set the `breakable' flag manually to override it? BTW, it is very unpleasant that lilypond doesn't emit any kind of warning if it produces an overlong staff caused by that issue. It silently accumulates unbreakable bars and happily walks out of the right margin. I would consider this behaviour a bug. Werner _______________________________________________ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@... http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel |
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Re: line breaks and broken beams
by Trevor Bača-2
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+1.
(I've always felt this way, too.) Trevor (B). On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 5:44 PM, Werner LEMBERG <wl@...> wrote:
-- Trevor Bača trevorbaca@... _______________________________________________ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@... http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel |
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Re: line breaks and broken beams
by Werner LEMBERG
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>> What's the reason that line breaks are by default forbidden if >> there is a broken beam crossing the bar line, and that you have to >> set the `breakable' flag manually to override it? >> >> BTW, it is very unpleasant that lilypond doesn't emit any kind of >> warning if it produces an overlong staff caused by that issue. It >> silently accumulates unbreakable bars and happily walks out of the >> right margin. I would consider this behaviour a bug. > > +1. > > (I've always felt this way, too.) Then let's drop the IMHO unfounded limitation of not breaking at beams crossing a barline. Werner _______________________________________________ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@... http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel |
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Re: line breaks and broken beams
by David Kastrup
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Werner LEMBERG <wl@...> writes:
>>> What's the reason that line breaks are by default forbidden if >>> there is a broken beam crossing the bar line, and that you have to >>> set the `breakable' flag manually to override it? >>> >>> BTW, it is very unpleasant that lilypond doesn't emit any kind of >>> warning if it produces an overlong staff caused by that issue. It >>> silently accumulates unbreakable bars and happily walks out of the >>> right margin. I would consider this behaviour a bug. >> >> +1. >> >> (I've always felt this way, too.) > > Then let's drop the IMHO unfounded limitation of not breaking at beams > crossing a barline. Is there a way to slightly penalize it rather than prohibiting it completely or being completely unconcerned? -- David Kastrup _______________________________________________ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@... http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel |
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Re: line breaks and broken beams
by Werner LEMBERG
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Ping! Werner ====================================================================== From: Werner LEMBERG <wl@...> Subject: Re: line breaks and broken beams Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 16:08:31 +0200 (CEST) > >>> What's the reason that line breaks are by default forbidden if >>> there is a broken beam crossing the bar line, and that you have to >>> set the `breakable' flag manually to override it? >>> >>> BTW, it is very unpleasant that lilypond doesn't emit any kind of >>> warning if it produces an overlong staff caused by that issue. It >>> silently accumulates unbreakable bars and happily walks out of the >>> right margin. I would consider this behaviour a bug. >> >> +1. >> >> (I've always felt this way, too.) > > Then let's drop the IMHO unfounded limitation of not breaking at beams > crossing a barline. > > > Werner _______________________________________________ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@... http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel |
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Re: line breaks and broken beams
by Patrick McCarty-3
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On 2009-09-27, Werner LEMBERG wrote:
> > >> What's the reason that line breaks are by default forbidden if > >> there is a broken beam crossing the bar line, and that you have to > >> set the `breakable' flag manually to override it? > >> > >> BTW, it is very unpleasant that lilypond doesn't emit any kind of > >> warning if it produces an overlong staff caused by that issue. It > >> silently accumulates unbreakable bars and happily walks out of the > >> right margin. I would consider this behaviour a bug. > > > > +1. > > > > (I've always felt this way, too.) > > Then let's drop the IMHO unfounded limitation of not breaking at beams > crossing a barline. a6f65c52e2a20cd64067da45945e485d74ac3105. See the attached patch. What do you think? Thanks, Patrick From 8d3179adcb90dcdcd3d0d6f5978083cb3ff4c38b Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: Patrick McCarty <pnorcks@...> Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 01:48:10 -0700 Subject: [PATCH] At line breaks, break beams by default --- scm/define-grobs.scm | 3 +-- 1 files changed, 1 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-) diff --git a/scm/define-grobs.scm b/scm/define-grobs.scm index e311c3b..22ab1d1 100644 --- a/scm/define-grobs.scm +++ b/scm/define-grobs.scm @@ -370,8 +370,7 @@ (object-callbacks . ((normal-stems . ,ly:beam::calc-normal-stems))) (interfaces . (beam-interface font-interface - staff-symbol-referencer-interface - unbreakable-spanner-interface)))))) + staff-symbol-referencer-interface)))))) (BendAfter . ( -- 1.6.5.2 _______________________________________________ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@... http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel |
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Re: line breaks and broken beams
by Patrick McCarty-3
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On 2009-10-27, Patrick McCarty wrote:
> On 2009-09-27, Werner LEMBERG wrote: > > > > >> What's the reason that line breaks are by default forbidden if > > >> there is a broken beam crossing the bar line, and that you have to > > >> set the `breakable' flag manually to override it? > > >> > > >> BTW, it is very unpleasant that lilypond doesn't emit any kind of > > >> warning if it produces an overlong staff caused by that issue. It > > >> silently accumulates unbreakable bars and happily walks out of the > > >> right margin. I would consider this behaviour a bug. > > > > > > +1. > > > > > > (I've always felt this way, too.) > > > > Then let's drop the IMHO unfounded limitation of not breaking at beams > > crossing a barline. > > This would just require (I think) a revert of Han-Wen's commit > a6f65c52e2a20cd64067da45945e485d74ac3105. > > See the attached patch. What do you think? Hmm. I'll take that back. There were more changes made in that commit, but I don't understand the effect of the other changes, e.g. moving the typeset_beam() call from stop_translation_timestep() to process_music(). -Patrick _______________________________________________ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@... http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel |
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Re: line breaks and broken beams
by Joe Neeman-2
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On Tue, 2009-10-27 at 01:54 -0700, Patrick McCarty wrote:
> On 2009-09-27, Werner LEMBERG wrote: > > > > >> What's the reason that line breaks are by default forbidden if > > >> there is a broken beam crossing the bar line, and that you have to > > >> set the `breakable' flag manually to override it? > > >> > > >> BTW, it is very unpleasant that lilypond doesn't emit any kind of > > >> warning if it produces an overlong staff caused by that issue. It > > >> silently accumulates unbreakable bars and happily walks out of the > > >> right margin. I would consider this behaviour a bug. > > > > > > +1. > > > > > > (I've always felt this way, too.) > > > > Then let's drop the IMHO unfounded limitation of not breaking at beams > > crossing a barline. > > This would just require (I think) a revert of Han-Wen's commit > a6f65c52e2a20cd64067da45945e485d74ac3105. > > See the attached patch. What do you think? It should just be a matter of setting breakable to ##t by default in the Beam grob. Joe _______________________________________________ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@... http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel |
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Re: line breaks and broken beams
by Patrick McCarty-3
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On 2009-10-27, Joe Neeman wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-10-27 at 01:54 -0700, Patrick McCarty wrote: > > On 2009-09-27, Werner LEMBERG wrote: > > > > > > >> What's the reason that line breaks are by default forbidden if > > > >> there is a broken beam crossing the bar line, and that you have to > > > >> set the `breakable' flag manually to override it? > > > >> > > > >> BTW, it is very unpleasant that lilypond doesn't emit any kind of > > > >> warning if it produces an overlong staff caused by that issue. It > > > >> silently accumulates unbreakable bars and happily walks out of the > > > >> right margin. I would consider this behaviour a bug. > > > > > > > > +1. > > > > > > > > (I've always felt this way, too.) > > > > > > Then let's drop the IMHO unfounded limitation of not breaking at beams > > > crossing a barline. > > > > This would just require (I think) a revert of Han-Wen's commit > > a6f65c52e2a20cd64067da45945e485d74ac3105. > > > > See the attached patch. What do you think? > > It should just be a matter of setting breakable to ##t by default in the > Beam grob. Oops, thanks for catching that. However, I found a comment in ly/declarations-init.ly: %% FIXME %% should also set \override Beam #'breakable, but how to do it %% "portably"? (ie. also working with lyric sections) %% %% try \once \override Score.Beam #'breakable = ##t A real solution sounds more complicated, in other words. -Patrick _______________________________________________ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@... http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel |
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Re: line breaks and broken beams
by Joe Neeman-2
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On Tue, 2009-10-27 at 12:06 -0700, Patrick McCarty wrote:
> On 2009-10-27, Joe Neeman wrote: > > On Tue, 2009-10-27 at 01:54 -0700, Patrick McCarty wrote: > > > On 2009-09-27, Werner LEMBERG wrote: > > > > > > > > >> What's the reason that line breaks are by default forbidden if > > > > >> there is a broken beam crossing the bar line, and that you have to > > > > >> set the `breakable' flag manually to override it? > > > > >> > > > > >> BTW, it is very unpleasant that lilypond doesn't emit any kind of > > > > >> warning if it produces an overlong staff caused by that issue. It > > > > >> silently accumulates unbreakable bars and happily walks out of the > > > > >> right margin. I would consider this behaviour a bug. > > > > > > > > > > +1. > > > > > > > > > > (I've always felt this way, too.) > > > > > > > > Then let's drop the IMHO unfounded limitation of not breaking at beams > > > > crossing a barline. > > > > > > This would just require (I think) a revert of Han-Wen's commit > > > a6f65c52e2a20cd64067da45945e485d74ac3105. > > > > > > See the attached patch. What do you think? > > > > It should just be a matter of setting breakable to ##t by default in the > > Beam grob. > > Oops, thanks for catching that. However, I found a comment in > ly/declarations-init.ly: > > %% FIXME > %% should also set \override Beam #'breakable, but how to do it > %% "portably"? (ie. also working with lyric sections) > %% > %% try \once \override Score.Beam #'breakable = ##t > > > A real solution sounds more complicated, in other words. Can you try to figure out what the problem is with lyrics? That is, what happens for properly engraved scores and what happens in lilypond if you set Beam #'breakable to ##t and whether the problem could be solved by adding unbreakable-spanner-interface to LyricExtender or LyricHyphen (see Spanner_break_forbid_engraver). Cheers, Joe _______________________________________________ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@... http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel |
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Re: line breaks and broken beams
by Carl Sorensen-3
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On 10/27/09 3:01 PM, "Joe Neeman" <joeneeman@...> wrote: > On Tue, 2009-10-27 at 12:06 -0700, Patrick McCarty wrote: >> On 2009-10-27, Joe Neeman wrote: >>> On Tue, 2009-10-27 at 01:54 -0700, Patrick McCarty wrote: >> >>> It should just be a matter of setting breakable to ##t by default in the >>> Beam grob. >> >> Oops, thanks for catching that. However, I found a comment in >> ly/declarations-init.ly: >> >> %% FIXME >> %% should also set \override Beam #'breakable, but how to do it >> %% "portably"? (ie. also working with lyric sections) >> %% >> %% try \once \override Score.Beam #'breakable = ##t >> >> >> A real solution sounds more complicated, in other words. > > Can you try to figure out what the problem is with lyrics? That is, what > happens for properly engraved scores and what happens in lilypond if you > set Beam #'breakable to ##t and whether the problem could be solved by > adding unbreakable-spanner-interface to LyricExtender or LyricHyphen > (see Spanner_break_forbid_engraver). Isn't the problem that beams create melismata in vocal music, and you don't want to have a line break in the middle of a melisma? So for vocal music with beams indicating melismata, no breaking at a beam makes sense. Perhaps not so much for instrumental music. Carl _______________________________________________ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@... http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel |
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Re: line breaks and broken beams
by Werner LEMBERG
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> Isn't the problem that beams create melismata in vocal music, and > you don't want to have a line break in the middle of a melisma? Hmm. How often does this happen in real scores? I think that in most circumstances good (and thus flexible) spacing is much more important, and a user should locally disable such line breaks if there is ever a need for it. Werner _______________________________________________ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@... http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel |
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Re: line breaks and broken beams
by David Kastrup
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Carl Sorensen <c_sorensen@...> writes:
> Isn't the problem that beams create melismata in vocal music, and you > don't want to have a line break in the middle of a melisma? Baroque melisme can go on for lines. Do we have a way to discourage breaks but not completely disallow them? -- David Kastrup _______________________________________________ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@... http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel |
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Re: line breaks and broken beams
by Nicolas Sceaux
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Le 28 oct. 09 à 08:37, David Kastrup a écrit :
> Carl Sorensen <c_sorensen@...> writes: > >> Isn't the problem that beams create melismata in vocal music, and you >> don't want to have a line break in the middle of a melisma? > > Baroque melisme can go on for lines. Do we have a way to discourage > breaks but not completely disallow them? Absolutely. Last week, while typesetting a chorus from Messiah with many beams crossing bar lines, I was about to report that as a bug. The lines were just running out of the page, which is a bug, period. In an ideal world, LilyPond would try not to break beams, but not forbid it. In a "worst is better" world (that is, our world), breaking beams is just not forbidden. Nicolas _______________________________________________ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@... http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel |
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Re: line breaks and broken beams
by Joe Neeman-2
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On Wed, 2009-10-28 at 21:54 +0100, Nicolas Sceaux wrote:
> Le 28 oct. 09 à 08:37, David Kastrup a écrit : > > > Carl Sorensen <c_sorensen@...> writes: > > > >> Isn't the problem that beams create melismata in vocal music, and you > >> don't want to have a line break in the middle of a melisma? > > > > Baroque melisme can go on for lines. Do we have a way to discourage > > breaks but not completely disallow them? > > Absolutely. > Last week, while typesetting a chorus from Messiah with many beams > crossing > bar lines, I was about to report that as a bug. The lines were just > running out > of the page, which is a bug, period. > In an ideal world, LilyPond would try not to break beams, but not > forbid it. > In a "worst is better" world (that is, our world), breaking beams is > just not > forbidden. The line breaker has support for arbitrary penalties. If we had a thorough set of examples, we could try to find a penalty that works well. I'm reluctant, though, to just stick in an arbitrary penalty. Joe _______________________________________________ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@... http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel |
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