manual user creation

[jwheat]

Jon's stupid question of the day ...

Our faculty are having an issue with the 'they have to log in before they
can be added as a participant' thing.

So I manually added a test account to the SAKAI_USER_ID_MAP ( GEORGET )
this user is an LDAP user, not a local user and I made both the USER_ID and
EID GEORGET

is that ok since most of the USER_IDs are a random hashish looking thing?

Seems better this way since I can add him as a participant and it pulls his
name from LDAP etc.
Plus it creates a Site id of : ~georget

Any warnings with me moving forward with this concept?

- Jon



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
..:: I've learned that 'impossible' is a perception based on your skills.
Jonathan Wheat /  Developer
Luminis Developers Network
Messiah College, ITS
717.766.2511 x3385
Personal Blog : http://blogs.messiah.edu/wheat_world 
LDN - Luminis Developer Network - http://www.lumdev.net (
http://www.lumdev.net/ )
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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[Daniel McCallum]

Jon,

Unless I'm very much mistaken, it shouldn't be necessary for a user to
log in "before they can be added as a participant." So long as a user's
EID can be resolved to a local or provided set of user attributes, the
corresponding user _should_ be addable to any given worksite.

Theoretically, it's valid for UIDs to equal EIDs, and I know some
schools run just such a configuration. However, in general, EIDs are
understood to be owned by an external system of record and as such are
intended to be mutable, whereas UIDs are intended as opaque, immutable
database keys. Thus, in an ideal world, EIDs are stored only once in the
Sakai database, but UIDs can be stored repeatedly as pseudo-foreign
keys. If it's actually true that your EIDs never ever change, then you
could probably get away with generating SAKAI_USER_ID_MAP rows where
USER_ID = EID, but without fully understanding the motivation for
pre-populating those rows, I would generally advise against taking such
risks (i.e., of scattering potentially mutable FKs around your database).

FWIW, /portal/site/~[EID] urls will resolve the correct MyWorkspace
sites, even if UIDs != EIDs. But I understand that GUID-based
MyWorkspace site IDs can be annoying in other contexts. There is a patch
out there (http://bugs.sakaiproject.org/jira/browse/SAK-10299), though,
that makes it easier for admins to find MyWorkspace sites by EID.

Hope that helps.

- Dan

Jon Wheat wrote:

> Jon's stupid question of the day ...
>
> Our faculty are having an issue with the 'they have to log in before they
> can be added as a participant' thing.
>
> So I manually added a test account to the SAKAI_USER_ID_MAP ( GEORGET )
> this user is an LDAP user, not a local user and I made both the USER_ID and
> EID GEORGET
>
> is that ok since most of the USER_IDs are a random hashish looking thing?
>
> Seems better this way since I can add him as a participant and it pulls his
> name from LDAP etc.
> Plus it creates a Site id of : ~georget
>
> Any warnings with me moving forward with this concept?
>
> - Jon
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ..:: I've learned that 'impossible' is a perception based on your skills.
> Jonathan Wheat /  Developer
> Luminis Developers Network
> Messiah College, ITS
> 717.766.2511 x3385
> Personal Blog : http://blogs.messiah.edu/wheat_world 
> LDN - Luminis Developer Network - http://www.lumdev.net (
> http://www.lumdev.net/ )
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> [see attachment: "message0.html", size: 1617 bytes]
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> message0.html
> https://collab.sakaiproject.org/access/content/attachment/a9153408-cb4f-49d0-007f-8a8c0373f86a/message0.html
>
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[Maarten van Hoof]

Daniel McCallum schreef:
> Jon,
>
> Unless I'm very much mistaken, it shouldn't be necessary for a user to
> log in "before they can be added as a participant." So long as a
> user's EID can be resolved to a local or provided set of user
> attributes, the corresponding user _should_ be addable to any given
> worksite.
Your not mistaken, Jon. I'm developing a tool that creates user accounts
and adds them as participants to sites in a single step. Users can be
joined in sites before they've logged on.

Maarten

>
> Theoretically, it's valid for UIDs to equal EIDs, and I know some
> schools run just such a configuration. However, in general, EIDs are
> understood to be owned by an external system of record and as such are
> intended to be mutable, whereas UIDs are intended as opaque, immutable
> database keys. Thus, in an ideal world, EIDs are stored only once in
> the Sakai database, but UIDs can be stored repeatedly as
> pseudo-foreign keys. If it's actually true that your EIDs never ever
> change, then you could probably get away with generating
> SAKAI_USER_ID_MAP rows where USER_ID = EID, but without fully
> understanding the motivation for pre-populating those rows, I would
> generally advise against taking such risks (i.e., of scattering
> potentially mutable FKs around your database).
>
> FWIW, /portal/site/~[EID] urls will resolve the correct MyWorkspace
> sites, even if UIDs != EIDs. But I understand that GUID-based
> MyWorkspace site IDs can be annoying in other contexts. There is a
> patch out there (http://bugs.sakaiproject.org/jira/browse/SAK-10299),
> though, that makes it easier for admins to find MyWorkspace sites by EID.
>
> Hope that helps.
>
> - Dan
>
> Jon Wheat wrote:
>> Jon's stupid question of the day ...
>>
>> Our faculty are having an issue with the 'they have to log in before
>> they
>> can be added as a participant' thing.
>>
>> So I manually added a test account to the SAKAI_USER_ID_MAP ( GEORGET )
>> this user is an LDAP user, not a local user and I made both the
>> USER_ID and
>> EID GEORGET
>> is that ok since most of the USER_IDs are a random hashish looking
>> thing?
>>
>> Seems better this way since I can add him as a participant and it
>> pulls his
>> name from LDAP etc.
>> Plus it creates a Site id of : ~georget
>>
>> Any warnings with me moving forward with this concept?
>>
>> - Jon
>>
>>
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> ..:: I've learned that 'impossible' is a perception based on your
>> skills.
>> Jonathan Wheat /  Developer
>> Luminis Developers Network
>> Messiah College, ITS
>> 717.766.2511 x3385
>> Personal Blog : http://blogs.messiah.edu/wheat_world LDN - Luminis
>> Developer Network - http://www.lumdev.net (
>> http://www.lumdev.net/ )
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> [see attachment: "message0.html", size: 1617 bytes]
>>
>>
>> Attachments:
>>
>> message0.html
>> https://collab.sakaiproject.org/access/content/attachment/a9153408-cb4f-49d0-007f-8a8c0373f86a/message0.html 
>>
>>
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--
*Maarten van Hoof*
maarten.vanhoof@...

*Edia* - Educatie Technologie
Asterweg 19D12 | 1031 HL Amsterdam
*T* 020 716 36 12 | *F* 020 716 36 13 | *M* 06 245 392 15 | *www.edia.nl*

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[Yuji Shinozaki]

On Feb 4, 2008, at 8:00 AM, Maarten van Hoof wrote:

> Daniel McCallum schreef:
>> Jon,
>>
>> Unless I'm very much mistaken, it shouldn't be necessary for a  
>> user to log in "before they can be added as a participant." So  
>> long as a user's EID can be resolved to a local or provided set of  
>> user attributes, the corresponding user _should_ be addable to any  
>> given worksite.
> Your not mistaken, Jon. I'm developing a tool that creates user  
> accounts and adds them as participants to sites in a single step.  
> Users can be joined in sites before they've logged on.
>
> Maarten
>>

One question tangential to this:  When/how are the user_id's created  
and assigned to eid's?   As in, when is the entry to  
SAKAI_USER_ID_MAP created? They seem to be created at "first login",  
but I assume from the discussion in this thread that can be pre-
created. Is there an API to do this?

yuji
----

>> Theoretically, it's valid for UIDs to equal EIDs, and I know some  
>> schools run just such a configuration. However, in general, EIDs  
>> are understood to be owned by an external system of record and as  
>> such are intended to be mutable, whereas UIDs are intended as  
>> opaque, immutable database keys. Thus, in an ideal world, EIDs are  
>> stored only once in the Sakai database, but UIDs can be stored  
>> repeatedly as pseudo-foreign keys. If it's actually true that your  
>> EIDs never ever change, then you could probably get away with  
>> generating SAKAI_USER_ID_MAP rows where USER_ID = EID, but without  
>> fully understanding the motivation for pre-populating those rows,  
>> I would generally advise against taking such risks (i.e., of  
>> scattering potentially mutable FKs around your database).
>>
>> FWIW, /portal/site/~[EID] urls will resolve the correct  
>> MyWorkspace sites, even if UIDs != EIDs. But I understand that  
>> GUID-based MyWorkspace site IDs can be annoying in other contexts.  
>> There is a patch out there (http://bugs.sakaiproject.org/jira/ 
>> browse/SAK-10299), though, that makes it easier for admins to find  
>> MyWorkspace sites by EID.
>>
>> Hope that helps.
>>
>> - Dan
>>
>> Jon Wheat wrote:
>>> Jon's stupid question of the day ...
>>>
>>> Our faculty are having an issue with the 'they have to log in  
>>> before they
>>> can be added as a participant' thing.
>>>
>>> So I manually added a test account to the SAKAI_USER_ID_MAP  
>>> ( GEORGET )
>>> this user is an LDAP user, not a local user and I made both the  
>>> USER_ID and
>>> EID GEORGET
>>> is that ok since most of the USER_IDs are a random hashish  
>>> looking thing?
>>>
>>> Seems better this way since I can add him as a participant and it  
>>> pulls his
>>> name from LDAP etc.
>>> Plus it creates a Site id of : ~georget
>>>
>>> Any warnings with me moving forward with this concept?
>>>
>>> - Jon
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> ..:: I've learned that 'impossible' is a perception based on your  
>>> skills.
>>> Jonathan Wheat /  Developer
>>> Luminis Developers Network
>>> Messiah College, ITS
>>> 717.766.2511 x3385
>>> Personal Blog : http://blogs.messiah.edu/wheat_world LDN -  
>>> Luminis Developer Network - http://www.lumdev.net (
>>> http://www.lumdev.net/ )
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> [see attachment: "message0.html", size: 1617 bytes]
>>>
>>>
>>> Attachments:
>>>
>>> message0.html
>>> https://collab.sakaiproject.org/access/content/attachment/ 
>>> a9153408-cb4f-49d0-007f-8a8c0373f86a/message0.html
>>>
>>> ----------------------
>>> This automatic notification message was sent by Sakai Collab  
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>>> (a.k.a. sakai-dev) site.
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>>> Preferences.
>>>
>>
>> ----------------------
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>>
>>
>
> --
> *Maarten van Hoof*
> maarten.vanhoof@...
>
> *Edia* - Educatie Technologie
> Asterweg 19D12 | 1031 HL Amsterdam
> *T* 020 716 36 12 | *F* 020 716 36 13 | *M* 06 245 392 15 |  
> *www.edia.nl*
>
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> Preferences.

-----
Yuji Shinozaki
Sr. Technical Lead/Project Manager
University of Virginia
Advanced Technologies Group
ys2n@...


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[Jon Gorrono]

[Different 'Jon' ...... possibly with a similar message of the day :-) ]

By way making a partial answer to your question:
Adding someone to a site can add them to the map table if they're not there.
Add someone in the guest box, for example and the UDP is asked for an eid,
and what was entered in the box becomes the userid. the map table gets an
entry and the site realms are updated with this info. No record is added to
the user table.



On Feb 4, 2008 10:54 AM, Yuji Shinozaki <ys2n@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> On Feb 4, 2008, at 8:00 AM, Maarten van Hoof wrote:
>
> > Daniel McCallum schreef:
> >> Jon,
> >>
> >> Unless I'm very much mistaken, it shouldn't be necessary for a
> >> user to log in "before they can be added as a participant." So
> >> long as a user's EID can be resolved to a local or provided set of
> >> user attributes, the corresponding user _should_ be addable to any
> >> given worksite.
> > Your not mistaken, Jon. I'm developing a tool that creates user
> > accounts and adds them as participants to sites in a single step.
> > Users can be joined in sites before they've logged on.
> >
> > Maarten
> >>
>
> One question tangential to this:  When/how are the user_id's created
> and assigned to eid's?   As in, when is the entry to
> SAKAI_USER_ID_MAP created? They seem to be created at "first login",
> but I assume from the discussion in this thread that can be pre-
> created. Is there an API to do this?
>
> yuji
> ----
>
>
>
> >> Theoretically, it's valid for UIDs to equal EIDs, and I know some
> >> schools run just such a configuration. However, in general, EIDs
> >> are understood to be owned by an external system of record and as
> >> such are intended to be mutable, whereas UIDs are intended as
> >> opaque, immutable database keys. Thus, in an ideal world, EIDs are
> >> stored only once in the Sakai database, but UIDs can be stored
> >> repeatedly as pseudo-foreign keys. If it's actually true that your
> >> EIDs never ever change, then you could probably get away with
> >> generating SAKAI_USER_ID_MAP rows where USER_ID = EID, but without
> >> fully understanding the motivation for pre-populating those rows,
> >> I would generally advise against taking such risks (i.e., of
> >> scattering potentially mutable FKs around your database).
> >>
> >> FWIW, /portal/site/~[EID] urls will resolve the correct
> >> MyWorkspace sites, even if UIDs != EIDs. But I understand that
> >> GUID-based MyWorkspace site IDs can be annoying in other contexts.
> >> There is a patch out there (http://bugs.sakaiproject.org/jira/
> >> browse/SAK-10299), though, that makes it easier for admins to find
> >> MyWorkspace sites by EID.
> >>
> >> Hope that helps.
> >>
> >> - Dan
> >>
> >> Jon Wheat wrote:
> >>> Jon's stupid question of the day ...
> >>>
> >>> Our faculty are having an issue with the 'they have to log in
> >>> before they
> >>> can be added as a participant' thing.
> >>>
> >>> So I manually added a test account to the SAKAI_USER_ID_MAP
> >>> ( GEORGET )
> >>> this user is an LDAP user, not a local user and I made both the
> >>> USER_ID and
> >>> EID GEORGET
> >>> is that ok since most of the USER_IDs are a random hashish
> >>> looking thing?
> >>>
> >>> Seems better this way since I can add him as a participant and it
> >>> pulls his
> >>> name from LDAP etc.
> >>> Plus it creates a Site id of : ~georget
> >>>
> >>> Any warnings with me moving forward with this concept?
> >>>
> >>> - Jon
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>> ..:: I've learned that 'impossible' is a perception based on your
> >>> skills.
> >>> Jonathan Wheat /  Developer
> >>> Luminis Developers Network
> >>> Messiah College, ITS
> >>> 717.766.2511 x3385
> >>> Personal Blog : http://blogs.messiah.edu/wheat_world LDN -
> >>> Luminis Developer Network - http://www.lumdev.net (
> >>> http://www.lumdev.net/ )
> >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>> [see attachment: "message0.html", size: 1617 bytes]
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Attachments:
> >>>
> >>> message0.html
> >>> https://collab.sakaiproject.org/access/content/attachment/
> >>> a9153408-cb4f-49d0-007f-8a8c0373f86a/message0.html
> >>>
> >>> ----------------------
> >>> This automatic notification message was sent by Sakai Collab
> >>> (https://collab.sakaiproject.org/portal) from the DG: Development
> >>> (a.k.a. sakai-dev) site.
> >>> You can modify how you receive notifications at My Workspace >
> >>> Preferences.
> >>>
> >>
> >> ----------------------
> >> This automatic notification message was sent by Sakai Collab
> >> (https://collab.sakaiproject.org/portal) from the DG: Development
> >> (a.k.a. sakai-dev) site.
> >> You can modify how you receive notifications at My Workspace >
> >> Preferences.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > --
> > *Maarten van Hoof*
> > maarten.vanhoof@...
> >
> > *Edia* - Educatie Technologie
> > Asterweg 19D12 | 1031 HL Amsterdam
> > *T* 020 716 36 12 | *F* 020 716 36 13 | *M* 06 245 392 15 |
> > *www.edia.nl*
> >
> > ----------------------
> > This automatic notification message was sent by Sakai Collab
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> > (a.k.a. sakai-dev) site.
> > You can modify how you receive notifications at My Workspace >
> > Preferences.
>
> -----
> Yuji Shinozaki
> Sr. Technical Lead/Project Manager
> University of Virginia
> Advanced Technologies Group
> ys2n@...
>
>
> ----------------------
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>
>

--
Jon Gorrono
email{>+++++++++[>+++++++++++>++++++++++++>+++++++>+++++<<<<-]>+++++++.>++++.<---.>-.+++..---.-.+.>+.<++++++.<----.+.---.>+.<++++++++.>---.>>+.<<<----.-.>++.}

http{ats.ucdavis.edu}
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[Yuji Shinozaki]

On Feb 4, 2008, at 4:59 PM, Jon Gorrono wrote:

> [Different 'Jon' ...... possibly with a similar message of the  
> day :-) ]
>
> By way making a partial answer to your question:
> Adding someone to a site can add them to the map table if they're  
> not there.
> Add someone in the guest box, for example and the UDP is asked for  
> an eid,
> and what was entered in the box becomes the userid. the map table  
> gets an
> entry and the site realms are updated with this info. No record is  
> added to
> the user table.

Understood, but what happens when the membership is provided through  
a Group Provider (e.g. CourseManagement Group Provider)?  What  
"event" puts the mappings in?  It can't be the original roster  
selection, since the rosters may change (so a new user may be added  
to Sakai through the Group Provider at any time).

I am partly asking because there are some things (University Photos  
for one, I believe) which are mapped to user id.  So how do you know  
what user id to use if they aren't already in the SAKAI_USER_ID_MAP?

yuji
----

>
> --
> Jon Gorrono
> email{>+++++++++[>+++++++++++>++++++++++++>+++++++>+++++<<<<-]>+++++
> ++.>++++.<---.>-.+++..---.-.+.>+.<++++++.<----.+.---.>+.<+++++++
> +.>---.>>+.<<<----.-.>++.}
>
> http{ats.ucdavis.edu}
> [see attachment: "message0.html", size: 8278 bytes]
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> message0.html
> https://collab.sakaiproject.org/access/content/attachment/ 
> 0d74877e-53c9-496a-001a-9d12ca27f38a/message0.html
>
> ----------------------
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> Preferences.

-----
Yuji Shinozaki
Sr. Technical Lead/Project Manager
University of Virginia
Advanced Technologies Group
ys2n@...


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[Jon Gorrono]

On Feb 4, 2008 2:22 PM, Yuji Shinozaki <ys2n@...> wrote:

>
> On Feb 4, 2008, at 4:59 PM, Jon Gorrono wrote:
>
> > [Different 'Jon' ...... possibly with a similar message of the
> > day :-) ]
> >
> > By way making a partial answer to your question:
> > Adding someone to a site can add them to the map table if they're
> > not there.
> > Add someone in the guest box, for example and the UDP is asked for
> > an eid,
> > and what was entered in the box becomes the userid. the map table
> > gets an
> > entry and the site realms are updated with this info. No record is
> > added to
> > the user table.
>
> Understood, but what happens when the membership is provided through
> a Group Provider (e.g. CourseManagement Group Provider)?  What
> "event" puts the mappings in?  It can't be the original roster
> selection, since the rosters may change (so a new user may be added
> to Sakai through the Group Provider at any time).

AFAIK, it *is* the roster selection, or rather, the site save, that does
it...at that time all the roster azgroups are created, the
realm-role-group-functions are saved... the rosters can change, and if they
do, the site is refreshed and new user mappings are added, old are
dereferenced... if a user is dropped from a roster, when the effected users
login, their relationship in realms they have references to is updated at
that time. ('update participants' button will update all site participants
'now')....relatedly, if an enrollment gets dropped from a roster, or all
rosters, the related user eid is not removed from the mapping table.

So, it is only during realm refreshes that group providers can influence a
realm's constituency. Saving a site, refreshes all the related site and
group realms.



I should probably not be using either the term 'realms' or 'groups', not
sure which.... I think 'azgroup' might be the preferred term for 'realms',
or visa versa.




>
> I am partly asking because there are some things (University Photos
> for one, I believe) which are mapped to user id.  So how do you know
> what user id to use if they aren't already in the SAKAI_USER_ID_MAP?


I guess I was assuming that userid's are not usable unless they are in the
map table.... that is if the property setting to user the table is set.

If you are using eid mappings, there can't be members of the user table that
are not mapped in the user_id_map table, AFAIK.

But the reverse is possible, users can have mappings in the mapping table
and no entry in the sakai_user table. We have about  38 entries in our
sakai_user table, and 40000 mappings. All the 38 are among the 40.000.

What data maps to an user id and what maps to an eid is probably open to
much debate, but in the photo's case, it seems like the eid should be the
key.

>
> yuji
> ----
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> > --
> > Jon Gorrono
> > email{>+++++++++[>+++++++++++>++++++++++++>+++++++>+++++<<<<-]>+++++
> > ++.>++++.<---.>-.+++..---.-.+.>+.<++++++.<----.+.---.>+.<+++++++
> > +.>---.>>+.<<<----.-.>++.}
> >
> > http{ats.ucdavis.edu}
> > [see attachment: "message0.html", size: 8278 bytes]
> >
> >
> > Attachments:
> >
> > message0.html
> > https://collab.sakaiproject.org/access/content/attachment/
> > 0d74877e-53c9-496a-001a-9d12ca27f38a/message0.html
> >
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> -----
> Yuji Shinozaki
> Sr. Technical Lead/Project Manager
> University of Virginia
> Advanced Technologies Group
> ys2n@...
>
>
>

--
Jon Gorrono
email{>+++++++++[>+++++++++++>++++++++++++>+++++++>+++++<<<<-]>+++++++.>++++.<---.>-.+++..---.-.+.>+.<++++++.<----.+.---.>+.<++++++++.>---.>>+.<<<----.-.>++.}

http{ats.ucdavis.edu}
[see attachment: "message0.html", size: 5389 bytes]


Attachments:

message0.html
https://collab.sakaiproject.org/access/content/attachment/5b8e3653-1935-4280-80c8-4465cb34f22f/message0.html

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