mingwm10.dll

[Σταμάτης Μητροφάνης]

I quote: "MinGW: A collection of [...] combined with GNU toolsets that
allow one to produce native Windows programs that
_do_not_rely_on_any_3rd-party_C_runtime_DLLs_."

So, can somebody tell me then how can I remove the dependency on
`mingwm10.dll' even if I *do* need the functionality?

I.e., what if I need threads with exceptions AND want to have my program
in a single executable?

I didn't even realize that I was using that DLL!

It has been very frustrating for me. Please don't feel offended.

--------

Also, what is it that `mingwm10.dll' *does* exactly?  I `dumped' it and
found the following symbols inside:

__mingwthr_key_dtor
__mingwthr_remove_key_dtor

The file is only 15649 bytes long (with no licensing difficulties
AFAIK), but the inconvenience of having to distribute it together with
programs which could (and should) have been distributed as single
executables I must say is significant...  (as well as the inconvenience
of explaining to your boss why it's not working when you didn't even
*know* you were using that DLL!!!)

So, does anyone know (or can refer to some documentation explaining)
*exactly* what `mingwm10.dll' does?

Thank you.

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[Brian Dessent]

???????? ?????????? wrote:

> So, can somebody tell me then how can I remove the dependency on
> `mingwm10.dll' even if I *do* need the functionality?

You can, but you'll suffer a memory leak.  From the comment in
mthr_init.c:

 * The sole job of the Mingw thread support DLL (MingwThr) is to catch
 * all the dying threads and clean up the data allocated in the TLSs
 * for exception contexts during C++ EH. Posix threads have key dtors,
 * but win32 TLS keys do not, hence the magic. Without this, there's at
 * least `24 * sizeof (void*)' bytes leaks for each catch/throw in each
 * thread.

> I.e., what if I need threads with exceptions AND want to have my program
> in a single executable?

I don't think that's possible, since the functionality of cleaning up
these TLS keys is dependant on receiving DLL_THREAD_DETACH messages,
which can only be seen from DllMain.  So some DLL somewhere in your
process' address space would have to do this.  In the case of using MS's
tools since they control msvcr*.dll they can do it there, but we don't
have that luxury.

> __mingwthr_key_dtor
> __mingwthr_remove_key_dtor
>
> The file is only 15649 bytes long (with no licensing difficulties
> AFAIK), but the inconvenience of having to distribute it together with
> programs which could (and should) have been distributed as single
> executables I must say is significant...  (as well as the inconvenience
> of explaining to your boss why it's not working when you didn't even
> *know* you were using that DLL!!!)
>
> So, does anyone know (or can refer to some documentation explaining)
> *exactly* what `mingwm10.dll' does?

As the comment above says, its sole purpose is to free TLS variables
when a thread detaches.  If you can arrange for some other way for this
to happen, then you can circumvent the need for this DLL.  I can't think
of any, and I'm pretty sure that in all the past threads on this topic
nobody else presented a workable solution.

Brian

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[Σταμάτης Μητροφάνης]

Brian Dessent wrote:

> ???????? ?????????? wrote:
>  
>> I.e., what if I need threads with exceptions AND want to have my program in a single executable?
>>    
> I don't think that's possible, since the functionality of cleaning up
> these TLS keys is dependant on receiving DLL_THREAD_DETACH messages,
> which can only be seen from DllMain.  So some DLL somewhere in your
> process' address space would have to do this.  In the case of using MS's
> tools since they control msvcr*.dll they can do it there, but we don't
> have that luxury.
>  
> As the comment above says, its sole purpose is to free TLS variables
> when a thread detaches.  If you can arrange for some other way for this
> to happen, then you can circumvent the need for this DLL.  I can't think
> of any, and I'm pretty sure that in all the past threads on this topic
> nobody else presented a workable solution.
>  

As MS will want to maintain compatibility with old versions of programs
comipled with their own tools, they will probably keep the various
mechanisms in `msvcr*.dll' as they are. You think it is possible to use
whatever mechanism the MS tools use? In the end, MS-win shouldn't be
able to tell which program is MS-compiled and which is not.

Some reverse-engineering will be required.

I know... :-) I'm always welcome to do it myself.

Has anyone tried to do this before?

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[Brian Dessent]

???????? ?????????? wrote:

> As MS will want to maintain compatibility with old versions of programs
> comipled with their own tools, they will probably keep the various
> mechanisms in `msvcr*.dll' as they are. You think it is possible to use
> whatever mechanism the MS tools use? In the end, MS-win shouldn't be
> able to tell which program is MS-compiled and which is not.
>
> Some reverse-engineering will be required.

The problem is that Microsoft's compiler and gcc use totally different
mechanisms for C++ exception handling/unwinding.  MS uses SEH, whereas
gcc uses SJLJ or Dwarf2, depending on how it's built.  So I'm pretty
sure it's not possible to utilize whatever kind of hooks exist in MS's
runtime for this purpose, unless somebody contributes SEH code to gcc.
That has been discussed in the past on the gcc list but nothing ever
came of it, as far as I know.  And even if gcc could emit SEH code, it
still may not be possible to utilize anything from the Microsoft runtime
because the two compilers have very different C++ ABIs.

Brian

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[Σταμάτης Μητροφάνης]

Brian Dessent wrote:

> The problem is that Microsoft's compiler and gcc use totally different
> mechanisms for C++ exception handling/unwinding.  MS uses SEH, whereas
> gcc uses SJLJ or Dwarf2, depending on how it's built.  So I'm pretty
> sure it's not possible to utilize whatever kind of hooks exist in MS's
> runtime for this purpose, unless somebody contributes SEH code to gcc.
> That has been discussed in the past on the gcc list but nothing ever
> came of it, as far as I know.  And even if gcc could emit SEH code, it
> still may not be possible to utilize anything from the Microsoft runtime
> because the two compilers have very different C++ ABIs.
>  

I don't know very much about all these details, but if what we are
trying to do is invoke a callback whenever an exception is thrown (even
if a custom assembly wrapper callback statically linked in the
executable which calls the the mingwm10.dll functions, also statically
linked in the executable) then this shouldn't be so difficult, right?

Are there places where the MS-C-runtime-dlls invoke function pointers
during exception handling?
 Well, ok, *those* might be subject to change (but maybe it depends)...

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[Michael Gerdau]

> > came of it, as far as I know.  And even if gcc could emit SEH code, it
> > still may not be possible to utilize anything from the Microsoft runtime
> > because the two compilers have very different C++ ABIs.
> >  
> I don't know very much about all these details, but if what we are
> trying to do is invoke a callback whenever an exception is thrown (even
> if a custom assembly wrapper callback statically linked in the
> executable which calls the the mingwm10.dll functions, also statically
> linked in the executable) then this shouldn't be so difficult, right?

Wrong or at most partially right.

The problem is not invoking a callback, the problem in accessing
variables whose memory layout adheres to different C++ ABIs.

As long as this persists you'll have a lot of "fun" when trying to
do what you hint at.

The qork required is not fundamentally different from doing all the
things required to add SEH to gcc...

Best,
Michael
--
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 Sitz Hamburg; HRB 89145 Amtsgericht Hamburg
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[Σταμάτης Μητροφάνης]

Michael Gerdau wrote:

>> I don't know very much about all these details, but if what we are
>> trying to do is invoke a callback whenever an exception is thrown (even
>> if a custom assembly wrapper callback statically linked in the
>> executable which calls the the mingwm10.dll functions, also statically
>> linked in the executable) then this shouldn't be so difficult, right?
>>    
> Wrong or at most partially right.
>
> The problem is not invoking a callback, the problem in accessing
> variables whose memory layout adheres to different C++ ABIs.
>  

Obviously, some ad-hoc code will be necessary.
> As long as this persists you'll have a lot of "fun" when trying to
> do what you hint at.
>  
I suppose you mean "fun" as in "no fun at all".
> The qork required is not fundamentally different from doing all the
> things required to add SEH to gcc...
Well, I thought doing a hack like this would be much easier than adding
full SEH support to gcc, if I understand correctly.

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[Michael Gerdau]

> > The problem is not invoking a callback, the problem in accessing
> > variables whose memory layout adheres to different C++ ABIs.
> >  
> Obviously, some ad-hoc code will be necessary.

Researching it will be the tricky part.

> > As long as this persists you'll have a lot of "fun" when trying to
> > do what you hint at.
> >  
> I suppose you mean "fun" as in "no fun at all".

Yes.

> > The qork required is not fundamentally different from doing all the
> > things required to add SEH to gcc...
> Well, I thought doing a hack like this would be much easier than adding
> full SEH support to gcc, if I understand correctly.

Well, I thought doing a hack like this would be in a similar league
w/r to work involved as adding full SEH support to gcc, if I understand
correctly.

But then I erred in the past...

Best,
Michael
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[Brian Dessent]

???????? ?????????? wrote:

> I don't know very much about all these details, but if what we are
> trying to do is invoke a callback whenever an exception is thrown (even
> if a custom assembly wrapper callback statically linked in the
> executable which calls the the mingwm10.dll functions, also statically
> linked in the executable) then this shouldn't be so difficult, right?

I don't think that's it.  As I understand it, whenever gcc sets up a
try/catch block, it needs to store some context into a TLS variable.
Whenever the thread terminates, this memory needs to be freed.  And the
only way to be called every time a thread terminates is inside the
DllMain function.  So it would not be sufficient to staticly link these
functions, there has to be a DLL involved somewhere.

> Are there places where the MS-C-runtime-dlls invoke function pointers
> during exception handling?

I have no idea.  But the way MS does exception handling is totally
different, and might not involve storing context into TLS at all, so
this issue may not even exist there.

Brian

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[Σταμάτης Μητροφάνης]

>
>> Are there places where the MS-C-runtime-dlls invoke function pointers
>> during exception handling?
>>    
> I have no idea.  But the way MS does exception handling is totally
> different, and might not involve storing context into TLS at all, so
> this issue may not even exist there.
>  
I got everything wrong at first. We are simply trying to do stuff when
threads exit.

If the thread is terminated because of an unhandled exception, there
might be some hook which we can exploit. But then this is not the only
way a thread may exit. Handling everything may really be impossible.

I'll be looking into it.

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[Earnie]

Quoting ???????? ?????????? <smitrofanis@...>:

This phrase
>
> Some reverse-engineering will be required.
>

prevents this phrase
> Has anyone tried to do this before?
>
from being discussed on this list.  Please respond privately. So that
this phrase
> I know... :-) I'm always welcome to do it myself.
>
remains true.

Earnie

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[Earnie]

Quoting Brian Dessent <brian@...>:

>
> I don't think that's it.  As I understand it, whenever gcc sets up a
> try/catch block, it needs to store some context into a TLS variable.
> Whenever the thread terminates, this memory needs to be freed.  And the
> only way to be called every time a thread terminates is inside the
> DllMain function.  So it would not be sufficient to staticly link these
> functions, there has to be a DLL involved somewhere.
>

IIRC, the .exe can be its own dll.  I.E.: LoadLibrary can load .exe or
.dll.  Is there any reason why DllMain couldn't be contained in the
.exe?

Earnie

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[Σταμάτης Μητροφάνης]

Earnie Boyd wrote:
> Quoting Brian Dessent <brian@...>:
>  
>
> IIRC, the .exe can be its own dll.  I.E.: LoadLibrary can load .exe or
> .dll.  Is there any reason why DllMain couldn't be contained in the
> .exe?
Don't take my word for it...

I think it's because there is only one `entry point' in each EXE or DLL,
which can only be called either as an EXE or as a DLL (depending on the
`characteristics' field, I think). AFAIK, the system does not search for
a `DllMain' symbol. It simply uses the `entry point' with particular
arguments/calling convention/whatever depending on whether it's a DLL or
not.

Though, I may be wrong.

If you LoadLibaray an EXE (even your own EXE), either the `main'
function will be called or nothing will happen except the mapping of the
EXE into memory (the documentation is not very clear on this). Either
way, no thread notifications.

Or, I may be wrong!

This never bothered me so far. I just ran `objdump'.

Did I mention that I may be wrong?

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[Danny Smith]

> >
> > So, does anyone know (or can refer to some documentation explaining)
> > *exactly* what `mingwm10.dll' does?
>
> As the comment above says, its sole purpose is to free TLS variables
> when a thread detaches.  If you can arrange for some other
> way for this
> to happen, then you can circumvent the need for this DLL.  I
> can't think
> of any, and I'm pretty sure that in all the past threads on this topic
> nobody else presented a workable solution.
>

Look in the PECOFF spec
"6.7.2. TLS Callback Functions
The program can provide one or more TLS callback functions (though
Microsoft compilers do not
currently use this feature) to support additional initialization and
termination for TLS data objects. A typical reason to use such a
callback function would be to call constructors and destructors for
objects."

In order for that to work, we first need compiler and linker support to
write and handle .tls section.

Danny

> Brian
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------
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[Ross Ridge]

Danny Smith wrote:
>Look in the PECOFF spec
>"6.7.2. TLS Callback Functions
>The program can provide one or more TLS callback functions (though
>Microsoft compilers do not
>currently use this feature) to support additional initialization and
>termination for TLS data objects. A typical reason to use such a
>callback function would be to call constructors and destructors for
>objects."

Unfortunately, support for TLS callbacks isn't universal.  They don't
seem to be supported all under Win9x/ME and they aren't supported for
dynamically loaded DLLs under Windows XP.

>In order for that to work, we first need compiler and linker support to
>write and handle .tls section.

I think if you just want a TLS callback then you can do it the current
binutils ld.  You might need a custom ld script, but you don't need to
use the .tls section.

                                Ross Ridge




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[Bob Rossi-2]

On Mon, Feb 12, 2007 at 10:50:45AM +0200, Σταμάτης Μητροφάνης wrote:
> I quote: "MinGW: A collection of [...] combined with GNU toolsets that
> allow one to produce native Windows programs that
> _do_not_rely_on_any_3rd-party_C_runtime_DLLs_."

I'm using mingw and msys.
  $ msysinfo
  msysinfo-1.3: Send this to the MSYS support list:
                                                                                                         
  MSYS 1.0.11(0.46/3/2) 2004-04-30 18:55 i686 unknown; targ=MINGW32
  GNU bash, version 2.04.0(1)-release (i686-pc-msys); ENV=.profile
  GNU Make version 3.79.1,Built for i686-pc-msys; MAKE_MODE=unix
  gcc.exe (GCC) 3.4.2 (mingw-special); targ=MINGW32
  GNU ld version 2.15.91 20040904
    5927498 Fri Apr 30 23:15:08 2004 /bin/msys-1.0.dll
      52064 Thu Jan 02 08:05:27 2003 /bin/msysltdl-3.dll
     135680 Fri Apr 30 23:15:05 2004 /bin/make.exe
      88064 Tue Sep 21 05:15:22 2004 /mingw/bin/gcc.exe
     642048 Sat Sep 04 20:45:43 2004 /mingw/bin/ld.exe

  $ g++ --version
  g++.exe (GCC) 3.4.2 (mingw-special)

If I build a hello world application I don't get mingw10.dll linked in
with
  $ objdump -p main.exe |grep "DLL Name"
          DLL Name: KERNEL32.dll
          DLL Name: msvcrt.dll
          DLL Name: msvcrt.dll

and even with my full blown application, I don't get it brought in.

What triggers this dll?

Thanks,
Bob Rossi

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[John Vandenberg]

On 2/14/07, Bob Rossi <bob_rossi@...> wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2007 at 10:50:45AM +0200, Σταμάτης Μητροφάνης wrote:
> > I quote: "MinGW: A collection of [...] combined with GNU toolsets that
> > allow one to produce native Windows programs that
> > _do_not_rely_on_any_3rd-party_C_runtime_DLLs_."
>
> I'm using mingw and msys.
>   $ msysinfo
....

> If I build a hello world application I don't get mingw10.dll linked in
> with
>   $ objdump -p main.exe |grep "DLL Name"
>           DLL Name: KERNEL32.dll
>           DLL Name: msvcrt.dll
>           DLL Name: msvcrt.dll
>
> and even with my full blown application, I don't get it brought in.
>
> What triggers this dll?

It is linked in when using C++ and threads.

If you grab a copy of a hello world in C++
(http://www.personal.rdg.ac.uk/~sis04lw/c++/lang/first.html) and use
-mthreads, it will be linked in.

$ g++ -o hello-world.exe -mthreads hello-world.cpp

$ objdump.exe -j .idata -p hello-world.exe | sed -ne '/mingwm10/,/^$/{p;}'
        DLL Name: mingwm10.dll
        vma:  Hint/Ord Member-Name Bound-To
        3b404       0  __mingwthr_key_dtor

--
John
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[Brian Dessent]

Bob Rossi wrote:

> and even with my full blown application, I don't get it brought in.
>
> What triggers this dll?

Look at the specs file.  It is added when using -mthreads, which is
required for correct behavior if you code uses multiple threads.

*libgcc:
%{mthreads:-lmingwthrd} -lmingw32 -lgcc -lmoldname -lmingwex -lmsvcrt

Brian

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[Bob Rossi-2]

On Tue, Feb 13, 2007 at 04:25:30PM -0800, Brian Dessent wrote:

> Bob Rossi wrote:
>
> > and even with my full blown application, I don't get it brought in.
> >
> > What triggers this dll?
>
> Look at the specs file.  It is added when using -mthreads, which is
> required for correct behavior if you code uses multiple threads.
>
> *libgcc:
> %{mthreads:-lmingwthrd} -lmingw32 -lgcc -lmoldname -lmingwex -lmsvcrt

Wierd. I use apr (http://apr.apache.org/), and I use the thread support
that it has. So, somehow I'm getting thread support, but don't end up
with the mingw10.dll problem.

Any ideas why?

Bob Rossi

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[James Steward-2]

On Tue, 2007-02-13 at 20:55 -0500, Bob Rossi wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 13, 2007 at 04:25:30PM -0800, Brian Dessent wrote:
> > Bob Rossi wrote:
> >
> > > and even with my full blown application, I don't get it brought in.
> > >
> > > What triggers this dll?
> >
> > Look at the specs file.  It is added when using -mthreads, which is
> > required for correct behavior if you code uses multiple threads.
> >
> > *libgcc:
> > %{mthreads:-lmingwthrd} -lmingw32 -lgcc -lmoldname -lmingwex -lmsvcrt
>
> Wierd. I use apr (http://apr.apache.org/), and I use the thread support
> that it has. So, somehow I'm getting thread support, but don't end up
> with the mingw10.dll problem.
>
> Any ideas why?

Could it be that the apr stuff wraps the mingw10.dll within it's own?

For example, I wrote a dll that uses libxml2.  If I objdump and look for
the dlls used by my dll it reports libxml2 among others.  If I then
objdump libxml2.dll I see that it uses iconv.dll and zlib1.dll - however
they are not mentioned in the objdump of my dll!

Regards,
James.


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