more Tine press releases, violating the status quo

[Lutz Falkenburg (irrsinn.de gmbh)]

Thank you for your clear statemant Lars, showing once more your real  
face and intension behind this all.

Have fun and a nice weekend.

Lutz

Am 09.02.2008 um 14:47 schrieb Lars Kneschke:

> "Lutz Falkenburg" <lf@...> schrieb:
>
>> PS: Do you think it is possible throwing all personal resentments
>> away, starting from scratch? Trying to discuss professional? I am
>> willing to do so. But not only technically more in the way to get the
>> project more stable and keep the user needs in mind. Probably we
>> should hold a conference somewhere personally or a telco discussing  
>> as
>> long as we get a conclusion. BUT be warned everybody will have to  
>> make
>> compromises (me too) :)
>
> As most of the readers on this list, don't read the german list,  
> they don't
> know, that Cornelius and me don't answer to any of Lutz's email  
> anymore.
>
> This is also on this list the last response to Lutz.
>
> Lutz, you have nothing to offer we can make a compromise about. You  
> want to
> use my code. I want nothing from you. I don't see any reason why I  
> should
> try to find a compromise with you.
>
> I'm open to any compromises. But not with you. Help yourself.
> --
> Lars Kneschke
> CTO OfficeSpot.Net
> Metaways Infosystems GmbH
> Pickhuben 2-4, D-20457 Hamburg
>
> eGroupWare Support: http://www.egroupware-support.net
> OfficeSpot.Net Collaboration Server: http://cs.officespot.net
> our proposal for the next major eGroupWare release: http://www.tine20.org
>
> E-Mail: mailto:l.kneschke@...
> Web: http://www.metaways.de
> Tel: [phone]
> Fax: [phone]
> Mobile: [phone]
>
> Metaways Infosystems GmbH - Sitz: D-22967 Tremsbüttel
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> Geschäftsführung: Hermann Thaele, Lüder-H.Thaele
>
>
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[jaytraxx]

Hi again,

>
> PS: Do you think it is possible throwing all personal resentments away,
> starting from scratch? Trying to discuss professional? I am willing to
> do so. But not only technically more in the way to get the project more
> stable and keep the user needs in mind. Probably we should hold a
> conference somewhere personally or a telco discussing as long as we get
> a conclusion. BUT be warned everybody will have to make compromises (me
> too) :)
>
>

*That* would be a really good idea. I don't think we can go on that way
we do now. Cause that's war at the moment, and as you already know,
everyone normally looses at a war.

Bye
Christian


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[Milosch]

It's not been possible for me so far to discuss things in a professional manner.  I think I am trying and have done well, but I only receive insults in return.  But, here we go again.  This is from me and is not an official admin statement:

The press releases appear to be in violation of the admin statement from December, which also makes them in violation of the constitution.  I don't see a reason for their existence other than to provoke a response.  There has been no explanation other than asking "why can't we do this," which is certainly not a denial of responsibility.  So, the question is what to actually do about it.  No one wants to lose developers.  But, as far as I am concerned, the real motivation on their part is to be the sole influence on the direction of the project regardless of the wishes of the developers, user base, or administrative staff.

The fact that this work appears to be essentially funded by a single company worries me, as I am very suspicious of their motives.  Even if these developers have only the best intentions, they cannot really know what their company will do in the future as far as code ownership, alliances with larger corporations or governments, etc.  I would rather that the project not be subject to the whim of their employer, or any other single entity which is not built specifically and only to promote and protect the egroupware project.  I hope everyone will at least think about this as we move forward.

In summary, if you have no respect for the admins, or their statements as made within and as an extension of the constitution of this project, then you have no respect for the constitution itself, regardless of who the admins are.  This means that you have no respect for the project, as the constitution is the organizing document for the project.  If you want to change it, then there are procedures set forth for this purpose.  Otherwise, you must respect these rules if you wish to continue to remain as members of the project.  You accepted the admin statement on or around 12-18-2007.  Your acceptance is, however, not required.  The fact is that the statement has been made and is now part of our organizing principles.  I feel that the methods used so far are inline with that concept, as agreed upon by all voting members several years ago.  You can create your own rules, if you wish.  But, you will not do it here.

Christian Binder wrote:

Hi again,

  

PS: Do you think it is possible throwing all personal resentments away, 
starting from scratch? Trying to discuss professional? I am willing to 
do so. But not only technically more in the way to get the project more 
stable and keep the user needs in mind. Probably we should hold a 
conference somewhere personally or a telco discussing as long as we get 
a conclusion. BUT be warned everybody will have to make compromises (me 
too) :)


    

*That* would be a really good idea. I don't think we can go on that way 
we do now. Cause that's war at the moment, and as you already know, 
everyone normally looses at a war.

Bye
Christian


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[Lars Kneschke-2]

"Miles Lott" <milos@...> schrieb:

The fact that this work appears to be essentially funded by a single company worries me, as I am very suspicious of their motives.  Even if these developers have only the best intentions, they cannot really know what their company will do in the future as far as code ownership, alliances with larger corporations or governments, etc.  I would rather that the project not be subject to the whim of their employer, or any other single entity which is not built specifically and only to promote and protect the egroupware project.  I hope everyone will at least think about this as we move forward.

What would that change? GPL stays GPL. Regardless what happens with us, the license of the released code will not change.

And how would that change the current situation. Currently eGroupWare is driven by only one developer. Nothing happend at the core of eGroupWare since Ralf is on vacation. Who takes care of eTemplate if Ralf decides todo something else. "I would rather that the project not be subject to the whim of Ralf, or any other single entity which is not built specifically and only to promote and protect the egroupware project.  I hope everyone will at least think about this as we move forward."

In summary, if you have no respect for the admins, or their statements as made within and as an extension of the constitution of this project, then you have no respect for the constitution itself, regardless of who the admins are.  This means that you have no respect for the project, as the constitution is the organizing document for the project.  If you want to change it, then there are procedures set forth for this purpose.  Otherwise, you must respect these rules if you wish to continue to remain as members of the project.  You accepted the admin statement on or around 12-18-2007.  Your acceptance is, however, not required.  The fact is that the statement has been made and is now part of our organizing principles.  I feel that the methods used so far are inline with that concept, as agreed upon by all voting members several years ago.  You can create your own rules, if you wish.  But, you will not do it here.

I stated very clearly. why I don't have any respect for you as admins anymore. Respect is mutual.

Cornelius and me are projectmembers too. I also elected you as admin. But if you don't care about me, why should I care about you?

The Nigel Vickers case is still undecided since at least 2 months.
We still don't have a list of projectmembers since at least 3 weeks.
Non projectmembers post to the core list and no admin takes care about it.

---

Lars Kneschke
CTO OfficeSpot.Net
Metaways Infosystems GmbH
Pickhuben 2-4, D-20457 Hamburg

eGroupWare Support: http://www.egroupware-support.net
OfficeSpot.Net Collaboration Server: http://cs.officespot.net
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E-Mail: mailto:l.kneschke@...
Web: http://www.metaways.de
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[tt_oscar]

Lars, I must say I like the term 'ubertroll', 'coz that reflected
perfectly how Lutz was acting; pretty annoying to me as well.

Nevertheless, he *is* part of the community, and just like you, he seems
frustrated, but for different reasons.

You're willing to stick out your neck in an attempt to improve
eGroupWare, and I really appreciate that.
Yet, I don't think that is a carte-blanche to treat people as ubertrolls
when they are trying to change that; Lutz' mails are getting more
reasonable.

Keep the focus where it should be. Don't let your frustration affect
everybody; if your behavior results in the loss of you as a highly
respected core developer and a driving force behind innovations (whether
or not they will fully result in a new codebase), we all lose.

Oscar

On Sat, 2008-02-09 at 14:47 +0100, Lars Kneschke wrote:

> "Lutz Falkenburg" <lf@...> schrieb:
>
> > PS: Do you think it is possible throwing all personal resentments  
> > away, starting from scratch? Trying to discuss professional? I am  
> > willing to do so. But not only technically more in the way to get the  
> > project more stable and keep the user needs in mind. Probably we  
> > should hold a conference somewhere personally or a telco discussing as  
> > long as we get a conclusion. BUT be warned everybody will have to make  
> > compromises (me too) :)
>
> As most of the readers on this list, don't read the german list, they don't
> know, that Cornelius and me don't answer to any of Lutz's email anymore.
>
> This is also on this list the last response to Lutz.
>
> Lutz, you have nothing to offer we can make a compromise about. You want to
> use my code. I want nothing from you. I don't see any reason why I should
> try to find a compromise with you.
>
> I'm open to any compromises. But not with you. Help yourself.
> --
> Lars Kneschke
> CTO OfficeSpot.Net
> Metaways Infosystems GmbH
> Pickhuben 2-4, D-20457 Hamburg
>
> eGroupWare Support: http://www.egroupware-support.net
> OfficeSpot.Net Collaboration Server: http://cs.officespot.net
> our proposal for the next major eGroupWare release: http://www.tine20.org
>
> E-Mail: mailto:l.kneschke@...
> Web: http://www.metaways.de
> Tel: [phone]
> Fax: [phone]
> Mobile: [phone]
>
> Metaways Infosystems GmbH - Sitz: D-22967 Tremsbüttel
> Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Ahrensburg HRB 4508
> Geschäftsführung: Hermann Thaele, Lüder-H.Thaele
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Lars Kneschke-2]

"Oscar van Eijk" <oscar.van.eijk@...> schrieb:
> Keep the focus where it should be. Don't let your frustration affect
> everybody; if your behavior results in the loss of you as a highly
> respected core developer and a driving force behind innovations (whether
> or not they will fully result in a new codebase), we all lose.
Hello Oscar!

You are right!

Thanks for the right words in the right time.


--
Lars Kneschke
CTO OfficeSpot.Net
Metaways Infosystems GmbH
Pickhuben 2-4, D-20457 Hamburg

eGroupWare Support: http://www.egroupware-support.net
OfficeSpot.Net Collaboration Server: http://cs.officespot.net
our proposal for the next major eGroupWare release: http://www.tine20.org

E-Mail: mailto:l.kneschke@...
Web: http://www.metaways.de
Tel: [phone]
Fax: [phone]
Mobile: [phone]

Metaways Infosystems GmbH - Sitz: D-22967 Tremsbüttel
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[Lars Kneschke-2]

"luchs3" <luchs3@...> schrieb:
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm an egw user and told my boss to use egw in his company.
The eGroupWare 1.4 codebase is still maintained. No need to worry.

> I think I should wait to implement it until you three came down and find a
> decision, because I don't want to use a dead program.
So far Ralf stated that he will maintain and improve eGroupWare 1.4 also in
the future. In fact stoped working on eGroupWare 1.4 since at least one
year. So, nothing will change.

> The only thing I can say is, that we need nearly every application in egw.
> If you want to flush the whole code and the database, it will take about a
> few years to become as big as egw is now.
We will flush the codebase and will modify the database. But that does not
mean that you will lose your data.

> Tine looks cool and this way is not wrong but I think it would be better
to
> find a compromise between the old coldebase and the new look.
The main problem is, that we are talking about more than just a new look.
It's more about codedesign and codequality.

> The last thing I want to say is that it would be irresponsible to tell the
> current egw users that the future release wont be compatible to their
> installations.
Rest assured. That will never happen. Tine 2.0 is compatible to eGroupWare
1.4. You can migrate from eGroupWare 1.4 to Tine 2.0 the same way you
migrated from eGroupWare 1.2 to eGroupWare 1.4.

Thanks for your feedback!

--
Lars Kneschke
CTO OfficeSpot.Net
Metaways Infosystems GmbH
Pickhuben 2-4, D-20457 Hamburg

eGroupWare Support: http://www.egroupware-support.net
OfficeSpot.Net Collaboration Server: http://cs.officespot.net
our proposal for the next major eGroupWare release: http://www.tine20.org

E-Mail: mailto:l.kneschke@...
Web: http://www.metaways.de
Tel: [phone]
Fax: [phone]
Mobile: [phone]

Metaways Infosystems GmbH - Sitz: D-22967 Tremsbüttel
Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Ahrensburg HRB 4508
Geschäftsführung: Hermann Thaele, Lüder-H.Thaele



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[Frank-D]

Hi Lars, Hi everybody

I will really try hard to write an polite, non-Troll post ;-)

Lars Kneschke-2 wrote:

Should we vote about which code line to use? That makes not much sense to
me. Have a look at the pERP and BlueERP developers. They have bet their
whole application on eTemplate. As long Ralf will not migrate eTemplate,
these developers can only vote against our complete proposal, as they need
to protect their investment too.

I think this exactly is a crucial question. There are lots ond lots of apps (some of the customized for individual users needs) based on etemplate. Is there a way to use all those apps and the data in tine? And imho just giving Ralf all the responsibility for this is not a solution. Tine, too has to provide technical parts which enables such an integration. The closer some basic technical priciples (like database-structure for user, groups and apps) are, the easier it will be to make old-apps run in tine.
I think before trying to code all the diffent apps (and the really wide functionalities) it might be more effective trying to enable old-apps in tine.

Maybe we can vote if Tine 2.0 will be the technical base for eGroupWare 2.0.
That would make sense maybe. As it would allow us to continue to improve
Tine 2.0 and share as much as possible code in the distant future with the
eGroupWare codeline.

I think there is no other way, than finding a way to integrate tine-technology in egw or egw-apps in tine "technical base for eGroupWare2.0" is a quit soft term, giving no solutions, but if you mean, your code could be used in order to make a new 2.0 which uses both Zend and will support old apps to some extend, I am with you.

Lars Kneschke-2 wrote:

 We need to find a way how we can work together. Not to vate against each other. W

I agree, that finding a solution
using state of the art technolgoies like zend (unit tests etc.)
and supporting most of the old apps, including individual cusotmized apps based on etemplate.
would be great
If this is not possible a cut to stop the "war" may be the better way, than to fight for some more months.

One personal thing:
I am not an developer, but I feel part of the community, too. I am using egroupware. I am contributing to the community posting answers (most calendar or addressbook config stuff), writing and verifying bug-reports and feature requests.

best regards Frank

[tt_oscar]

@Lars, thanks for this reply, I hope this means you're willing to accept
Lutz' offer.

@Lutz, I hope your offer still stands, it's an important gesture for all
of us.

@All, please accept people might get frustrated every once in a while in
a situation like this. Sometimes some flaming is necessary, but don't
let it take over the discussion.

Oscar

On Sun, 2008-02-10 at 08:18 +0100, Lars Kneschke wrote:

> "Oscar van Eijk" <oscar.van.eijk@...> schrieb:
> > Keep the focus where it should be. Don't let your frustration affect
> > everybody; if your behavior results in the loss of you as a highly
> > respected core developer and a driving force behind innovations (whether
> > or not they will fully result in a new codebase), we all lose.
> Hello Oscar!
>
> You are right!
>
> Thanks for the right words in the right time.
>
>
> --
> Lars Kneschke
> CTO OfficeSpot.Net
> Metaways Infosystems GmbH
> Pickhuben 2-4, D-20457 Hamburg
>
> eGroupWare Support: http://www.egroupware-support.net
> OfficeSpot.Net Collaboration Server: http://cs.officespot.net
> our proposal for the next major eGroupWare release: http://www.tine20.org
>
> E-Mail: mailto:l.kneschke@...
> Web: http://www.metaways.de
> Tel: [phone]
> Fax: [phone]
> Mobile: [phone]
>
> Metaways Infosystems GmbH - Sitz: D-22967 Tremsbüttel
> Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Ahrensburg HRB 4508
> Geschäftsführung: Hermann Thaele, Lüder-H.Thaele
>
>

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