moving the wiki content?

[Erinn Clark-2]

Hello everyone,

DSA (the Debian sysadmins) want to move the Debian Women wiki content to
the official Debian wiki. Does anyone oppose this?


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[Meike Reichle-3]

Hi Erinn

Erinn Clark wrote @ 06/07/09 22:11:
> DSA (the Debian sysadmins) want to move the Debian Women wiki content to
> the official Debian wiki. Does anyone oppose this?

Considering that there's some cool stuff in there (I remember some very
nice Howtos etc.) and that AFAIK it's currently not accessible in any
other way I think it would be a good idea to move the contents to
wiki.d.o. Maybe it would be useful to check them over first, I think there
are also some wiki-internal pages in there that can be safely discarded.

Best,
Meike


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[Lisi Reisz]

On Monday 06 July 2009 21:11:19 Erinn Clark wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> DSA (the Debian sysadmins) want to move the Debian Women wiki content to
> the official Debian wiki. Does anyone oppose this?

Erinn -

In view of the recent thread, I think that now is a bad time, from my point of
view, to take away anything from the women's space.  We are, after all,
hardly made to feel welcome on the official site.  

Lisi


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[Steve Langasek]

On Mon, Jul 06, 2009 at 01:11:19PM -0700, Erinn Clark wrote:
> Hello everyone,

> DSA (the Debian sysadmins) want to move the Debian Women wiki content to
> the official Debian wiki. Does anyone oppose this?

Presently, there's a good deal of high-quality content in the Debian Women
wiki, which is out of sight of the "wiki community" that edits
wiki.debian.org and for which this mailing list is a clear point of contact
in the event of vandalization.  If this content is moved to wiki.debian.org,
will anyone take responsibility for it and maintain editorial control, or
will it be subjected to the unsupervised whims of the sort of people who
think wikis make a good place to hold a conversation?

--
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Debian Developer                   to set it on, and I can move the world.
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[Alexander Reichle-Schmehl-2]

Hi!

Steve Langasek schrieb:

> Presently, there's a good deal of high-quality content in the Debian Women
> wiki, which is out of sight of the "wiki community" that edits
> wiki.debian.org and for which this mailing list is a clear point of contact
> in the event of vandalization.  If this content is moved to wiki.debian.org,
> will anyone take responsibility for it and maintain editorial control, or
> will it be subjected to the unsupervised whims of the sort of people who
> think wikis make a good place to hold a conversation?

Where is the problem in subscribing to the content once it's moved over
there? There is quite some interesting content, which is kind of lost to
those, who don't know that there's a separate wiki.

Looking at the recent edits it also appears to me, that most edits are
removal of spam and done by Franklin (who is involved in wiki.d.o but
TTBOMK not in debian-women). So I wonder if the Debian women wiki is
maintained in any way at all?

Best regards,
  Alexander

[Meike Reichle-4]

Hi Lisi

> In view of the recent thread, I think that now is a bad time, from my point of
> view, to take away anything from the women's space.  We are, after all,
> hardly made to feel welcome on the official site.  

I respectfully disagree, on certain points actually:

1) I've never felt that we weren't welcome on the official site. In fact
D-W is one of only very few Debian sub-projects that actually have a
someting.debian.*org* domain. Most sub-projects only have a
something.debian.net one. I see that as a rather strong and public
approval and support of debian-women from the project's side and I am very
happy about that.

2) I don't agree with the "taking away". Looking at
http://women.debian.org the wiki is currently inaccessible, so if anyone
is taking away anything anything at all it's us, by hiding some very good
Howtos and explanations (including Marga's famous diagram :)) from people
who could find it very useful. When looking for general packaging etc
information wiki.d.o is a logical place to go and I think that by putting
our stuff there we make it accessible to a broad audience again which is a
good thing. If you are worried what will happen with it once it's there
the obvious thing to do would be to subscribe to the pages once they've
been created and keep an eye on them.

3) I really don't like to think in terms on "ours" and "theirs" or more
general "us" and "them" when it comes to D-W and Debian itself. Debian is
our "parent-project" (in lack of a better word) and not some kind of
adversary that we should protect our stuff from.
We use their infrastructure, they host our site, our wiki, and our mailing
list, we are part of Debian! Moreover, we do what we do because we think
that Debian benefits from it, we work for Debian and not against it.

Best regards,
Meike


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[Lesley Binks]

2009/7/8 Meike Reichle <meike@...>:

> Hi Lisi
>
>> In view of the recent thread, I think that now is a bad time, from my point of
>> view, to take away anything from the women's space.  We are, after all,
>> hardly made to feel welcome on the official site.
>
> I respectfully disagree, on certain points actually:
>
> 1) I've never felt that we weren't welcome on the official site. In fact
> D-W is one of only very few Debian sub-projects that actually have a
> someting.debian.*org* domain. Most sub-projects only have a
> something.debian.net one. I see that as a rather strong and public
> approval and support of debian-women from the project's side and I am very
> happy about that.

In a list and irc manner  I have rarely felt unwelcome within the
Linux community and not yet within the Debian part of it.
However in the light of the Ruby crap I feel it is even more important
to keep the women sub-project going.

>
> 2) I don't agree with the "taking away". Looking at
> http://women.debian.org the wiki is currently inaccessible, so if anyone
> is taking away anything anything at all it's us, by hiding some very good
> Howtos and explanations (including Marga's famous diagram :)) from people
> who could find it very useful. When looking for general packaging etc
> information wiki.d.o is a logical place to go and I think that by putting
> our stuff there we make it accessible to a broad audience again which is a
> good thing. If you are worried what will happen with it once it's there
> the obvious thing to do would be to subscribe to the pages once they've
> been created and keep an eye on them.

I think I am happier if we have our own 'quarter' where we can make it
absolutely clear
certain topics stuff are not welcome, nor tolerated and at least have
the expectation that we won't need to waste our time
explaining alternative viewpoints to saddos like the CouchDB and Rails
authors. ( I'm sorry I've only just picked up on the news about
that event and I am trying to be as polite as I can be about it.  I'm
just really angry right now.)

>
> 3) I really don't like to think in terms on "ours" and "theirs" or more
> general "us" and "them" when it comes to D-W and Debian itself. Debian is
> our "parent-project" (in lack of a better word) and not some kind of
> adversary that we should protect our stuff from.
> We use their infrastructure, they host our site, our wiki, and our mailing
> list, we are part of Debian! Moreover, we do what we do because we think
> that Debian benefits from it, we work for Debian and not against it.

I am happy to be a part of the Debian project - however small my part might be.
I am also more than happy to help keep up the women's subproject wiki
and web-pages going.

Regards

Lesley


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[Meike Reichle-4]

Hi all,

Lesley Binks wrote @ 08/07/09 15:52:

> In a list and irc manner  I have rarely felt unwelcome within the
> Linux community and not yet within the Debian part of it.
> However in the light of the Ruby crap I feel it is even more important
> to keep the women sub-project going.

Nobody want's to do anything to the d-w project as a whole. D-W will go on
not matter what. The question is simply and only if we want to move the
contents that were put in the Debian-Women wiki when it was still in use
into the general Debian wiki instead of having it rot away somewhere in an
unlinked and unused wiki installation.

> I think I am happier if we have our own 'quarter' where we can make it
> absolutely clear
> certain topics stuff are not welcome, nor tolerated and at least have
> the expectation that we won't need to waste our time
> explaining alternative viewpoints to saddos like the CouchDB and Rails
> authors. ( I'm sorry I've only just picked up on the news about
> that event and I am trying to be as polite as I can be about it.  I'm
> just really angry right now.)

I fully agree that the internet contains a whole lot of people that range
from annoying to plain offensive. However:
1) This is Debian, not CouchDB and not Ruby
2) I don't think creating a parallel infrastructure/community is the
solution to the problem. We should show face and not hide away in some
kind of virtual gated community.

> I am happy to be a part of the Debian project - however small my part might be.
> I am also more than happy to help keep up the women's subproject wiki
> and web-pages going.

We can of course re-activate the D-W wiki, re-link it in our pages, clean
it up, upgrade the software etc. etc. However the reason it fell into
oblivion in the first place is that D-W currently doesn't really produce
much content, leave alone content that is so plenty and so dynamic that it
needs a whole wiki to keep track of it. So, I currently don't see we
should take the trouble.

Best,
Meike


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[Miriam Ruiz-4]

2009/7/8 Meike Reichle <meike@...>:
> Lesley Binks wrote @ 08/07/09 15:52:
> Nobody want's to do anything to the d-w project as a whole. D-W will go on
> not matter what. The question is simply and only if we want to move the
> contents that were put in the Debian-Women wiki when it was still in use
> into the general Debian wiki instead of having it rot away somewhere in an
> unlinked and unused wiki installation.

My personal opinion is that moving our wiki pages to the general wiki
would be a positive thing.

> 2) I don't think creating a parallel infrastructure/community is the
> solution to the problem. We should show face and not hide away in some
> kind of virtual gated community.

+1

The goal of the DW project, AFAIK, has never been to have our own
social club where we could feel safe and protected isolated from the
"bad guys", but to promote the increase of the number of women
involved in the development of Debian, and as a final goal, to get
fully integrated in it.

>> I am happy to be a part of the Debian project - however small my part might be.
>> I am also more than happy to help keep up the women's subproject wiki
>> and web-pages going.
>
> We can of course re-activate the D-W wiki, re-link it in our pages, clean
> it up, upgrade the software etc. etc. However the reason it fell into
> oblivion in the first place is that D-W currently doesn't really produce
> much content, leave alone content that is so plenty and so dynamic that it
> needs a whole wiki to keep track of it. So, I currently don't see we
> should take the trouble.

One of the main parts of DW was to provide female models and
visibility so that other women would identify with the project. At the
moment we already have more visibility than then, there's usually some
entries in planet signed by women, and maybe we could achieve better
visibility if we had more articles signed by women in the general
wiki.

Greetings,
Miry


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[Steve Langasek]

On Wed, Jul 08, 2009 at 11:19:33AM +0200, Alexander Reichle-Schmehl wrote:

> Steve Langasek schrieb:

> > Presently, there's a good deal of high-quality content in the Debian Women
> > wiki, which is out of sight of the "wiki community" that edits
> > wiki.debian.org and for which this mailing list is a clear point of contact
> > in the event of vandalization.  If this content is moved to wiki.debian.org,
> > will anyone take responsibility for it and maintain editorial control, or
> > will it be subjected to the unsupervised whims of the sort of people who
> > think wikis make a good place to hold a conversation?

> Where is the problem in subscribing to the content once it's moved over
> there?

There's no problem with that, but are people are actually planning to do so?
(I'm not volunteering, just pointing out a potential concern with moving
this documentation to the main wiki.)

> There is quite some interesting content, which is kind of lost to
> those, who don't know that there's a separate wiki.

So people search for such content by using the wiki index and/or wiki
search?  This seems odd to me since so much other important documentation is
*not* in the wiki.  I would expect a google search to be more useful,
generally, or following links from somewhere.

> Looking at the recent edits it also appears to me, that most edits are
> removal of spam and done by Franklin (who is involved in wiki.d.o but
> TTBOMK not in debian-women). So I wonder if the Debian women wiki is
> maintained in any way at all?

I'm pretty sure the Debian women wiki *isn't* maintained, which is all the
more reason I worry about the content being subject to edits by people who
don't actually have a clue what they're doing if it's moved to the main
wiki.

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Debian Developer                   to set it on, and I can move the world.
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[Steve Langasek]

On Wed, Jul 08, 2009 at 02:52:34PM +0100, Lesley Binks wrote:

> I think I am happier if we have our own 'quarter' where we can make it
> absolutely clear
> certain topics stuff are not welcome, nor tolerated and at least have
> the expectation that we won't need to waste our time
> explaining alternative viewpoints

What does the transition look like from this, to a world where such topics
are not tolerated *anywhere* in the Debian community?

It's been many years since the Debian Women project was established with the
goal of helping women integrate themselves into the project as Debian
Developers.  I think it's been reasonably successful in this regard - at
least, the rate of women expressing interest in DDship making it through the
NM process appears to be very high.  If the list is no longer serving that
purpose, and is instead becoming a ghetto for people using it as an
*alternative* to participating in the broader Debian community, then
independent of the website question I would suggest Debian-Women has
outlived its usefulness as a distinct project and we might want to consider
disbanding it.

Certainly the group has been coasting for a while, which isn't a problem by
itself - but if it's now leading people to concede the main mailing lists to
people who are behaving inappropriately, I think that's counterproductive.

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[Lesley Binks]

2009/7/9 Steve Langasek <vorlon@...>:

> On Wed, Jul 08, 2009 at 02:52:34PM +0100, Lesley Binks wrote:
>
>> I think I am happier if we have our own 'quarter' where we can make it
>> absolutely clear
>> certain topics stuff are not welcome, nor tolerated and at least have
>> the expectation that we won't need to waste our time
>> explaining alternative viewpoints
>
> What does the transition look like from this, to a world where such topics
> are not tolerated *anywhere* in the Debian community?

I agree that such a transition would not occur if women were simply to
dig in and
not collaborate witj the remainder of the community.  I suspect it is
also against
Debian policy to do so.  It doesn't prevent me from feeling like that at times.

>
> It's been many years since the Debian Women project was established with the
> goal of helping women integrate themselves into the project as Debian
> Developers.  I think it's been reasonably successful in this regard - at
> least, the rate of women expressing interest in DDship making it through the
> NM process appears to be very high.  If the list is no longer serving that
> purpose, and is instead becoming a ghetto for people using it as an
> *alternative* to participating in the broader Debian community, then
> independent of the website question I would suggest Debian-Women has
> outlived its usefulness as a distinct project and we might want to consider
> disbanding it.

I would certainly disagree with that.  I think people are still using
it as a platform toward making other contributions to other projects.
I don't think I would have made the small contributions I have made in
other areas without the confirmation from the DW project
that there are women out there interested in making a contribution and
that furthermore there are also men who are not opposed
to women making a contribution solely on the basis of their gender.
>
> Certainly the group has been coasting for a while, which isn't a problem by
> itself - but if it's now leading people to concede the main mailing lists to
> people who are behaving inappropriately, I think that's counterproductive.
>
Even though I am currently unemployed and awaiting an operation, there
is no way I could keep up with all
the Debian mailing lists.  I try to keep up with the low traffic on
this one but even so do miss topics here.
I try to keep up with the debian-perl and debian-devel lists but feel
I also miss topics there too.
Which would you consider to be the main Debian lists(s) to pay
attention to and why do you think behaviour on those lists is
inappropriate?

Regards

Lesley

> --
> Steve Langasek                   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
> Debian Developer                   to set it on, and I can move the world.
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>
>
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[Steve Langasek]

On Thu, Jul 09, 2009 at 09:19:33PM +0100, Lesley Binks wrote:

> > Certainly the group has been coasting for a while, which isn't a problem by
> > itself - but if it's now leading people to concede the main mailing lists to
> > people who are behaving inappropriately, I think that's counterproductive.

> Even though I am currently unemployed and awaiting an operation, there
> is no way I could keep up with all
> the Debian mailing lists.  I try to keep up with the low traffic on
> this one but even so do miss topics here.
> I try to keep up with the debian-perl and debian-devel lists but feel
> I also miss topics there too.
> Which would you consider to be the main Debian lists(s) to pay
> attention to and why do you think behaviour on those lists is
> inappropriate?

For Debian development, debian-devel is the main general-purpose list that I
was thinking of.  debian-project may also qualify.

I, personally, *don't* think the behavior on those lists is inappropriate
(in the sense that we're discussing here), I was only reacting to this:

> >> I think I am happier if we have our own 'quarter' where we can make it
> >> absolutely clear
> >> certain topics stuff are not welcome, nor tolerated and at least have
> >> the expectation that we won't need to waste our time
> >> explaining alternative viewpoints

My point is that the kinds of topics that aren't tolerated on debian-women
shouldn't be tolerated on debian-devel either, and I am very concerned that
people not let debian-devel deteriorate on the grounds that debian-women is
"good enough".

Cheers,
--
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[Lisi Reisz]

On Saturday 11 July 2009 22:40:15 Steve Langasek wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 09, 2009 at 09:19:33PM +0100, Lesley Binks wrote:
> > > Certainly the group has been coasting for a while, which isn't a
> > > problem by itself - but if it's now leading people to concede the main
> > > mailing lists to people who are behaving inappropriately, I think
> > > that's counterproductive.
> >
> > Even though I am currently unemployed and awaiting an operation, there
> > is no way I could keep up with all
> > the Debian mailing lists.  I try to keep up with the low traffic on
> > this one but even so do miss topics here.
> > I try to keep up with the debian-perl and debian-devel lists but feel
> > I also miss topics there too.
> > Which would you consider to be the main Debian lists(s) to pay
> > attention to and why do you think behaviour on those lists is
> > inappropriate?
>
> For Debian development, debian-devel is the main general-purpose list that
> I was thinking of.  debian-project may also qualify.
>
> I, personally, *don't* think the behavior on those lists is inappropriate
>
> (in the sense that we're discussing here), I was only reacting to this:
> > >> I think I am happier if we have our own 'quarter' where we can make it
> > >> absolutely clear
> > >> certain topics stuff are not welcome, nor tolerated and at least have
> > >> the expectation that we won't need to waste our time
> > >> explaining alternative viewpoints
>
> My point is that the kinds of topics that aren't tolerated on debian-women
> shouldn't be tolerated on debian-devel either, and I am very concerned that
> people not let debian-devel deteriorate on the grounds that debian-women is
> "good enough".

I thought that the inappropriate behaviour referred to was on Debian-user?

Lisi


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[Miriam Ruiz-2]

2009/7/11 Steve Langasek <vorlon@...>:

> My point is that the kinds of topics that aren't tolerated on debian-women
> shouldn't be tolerated on debian-devel either, and I am very concerned that
> people not let debian-devel deteriorate on the grounds that debian-women is
> "good enough".

I fully agree.

Greetings,
Miry


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