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musical structure
by Kim Cascone
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I'm gathering some info for a lecture I'm giving about structure in
laptop music (read: electro-acoustic, noise, microsound, etc). What sorts of structure do people use in creating their work? _______________________________________________ microsound mailing list microsound@... http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound |
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Re: musical structure
by johan vandermaelen
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Before starting with a new laptop composition i put importance in choosing
the right program or combinations of programms. The structure of the program has a certain amount of influence in the actual output. Further it depends if the piece has a technological startingpoint, or is more inbedded in a traditional (altough contemporary) background. In other words: is the laptop a kind of studio with a lot of possibilities but in the traditional sence, or is it by itself a musical instrument (and i don't mean software synthesizers etc, but as machine) Johan Vandermaelen -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: microsound-bounces@... [mailto:microsound-bounces@...] Namens Kim Cascone Verzonden: dinsdag 15 september 2009 8:12 Aan: microsound_list Onderwerp: [microsound] musical structure I'm gathering some info for a lecture I'm giving about structure in laptop music (read: electro-acoustic, noise, microsound, etc). What sorts of structure do people use in creating their work? _______________________________________________ microsound mailing list microsound@... http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound _______________________________________________ microsound mailing list microsound@... http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound |
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Re: musical structure
by Greg Shapley
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I'm just doing some research into this at present and would be happy
to share my findings, but will probably be a few more weeks (or months). Of particular interest to me is how closely structural devices that artists use mirror the perceived structures of pieces. I would be interested in answers to Kim's question though. Greg Shapley _______________________________________________ microsound mailing list microsound@... http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound |
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Re: musical structure
by justin smith
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Kim Cascone wrote:
> I'm gathering some info for a lecture I'm giving about structure in > laptop music (read: electro-acoustic, noise, microsound, etc). > > What sorts of structure do people use in creating their work? > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound@... > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > For me, a large part of structuring a piece is the composition of the software, in csound, supercollider, or puredata. I consider these the languages I use to construct the programs I am using, the program itself is something I produce using one or more of these. There are very few programs I have used for performing more than one composition. The challenge is to construct something that is limited enough to give it a particular character, and general enough so that I am actually using the software in the live setting, and not just repeatedly pushing the button labeled "next movement". I like to use nonlinear and unpredictable algorithms with recursively feedback generated data, so often I will have an overall shape texturally in mind for each section of a piece I perform (usually written out in pencil on paper in an idiosyncratic notation), which I push the sounds my program is producing through. Currently I am reading Xenakis' "Formalized Music", which I recommend to anyone looking for compositional or programming ideas for electronic music. _______________________________________________ microsound mailing list microsound@... http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound |
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Re: musical structure
by Stephen Hastings-King
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i'm largely an acoustic performer (prepared piano) but i work in various hybrid contexts (electro-acoustic, with dance, etc.).
i use various means to organize pieces, but the consistent ones are rules/constraints and durations. i also treat recordings as compositions--the fact that a track has a fixed duration means that whatever unfolds within it has a structure. this comes straight from john cage: structure=duration. the constraints give a conceptual direction to a piece. (my favorite is make a hole and walk through it, but you can't do that one all the time.) the duration stipulations--the sequence of events---is the way a particular piece works with he overarching constraint. they are also themselves constraints, but locally oriented. the organization of events within a duration varies. prepared piano is largely about materials--what you use in the wires, what you use on the wires. so alot of events are about the exploring of possibilities opened up by the interaction of, say, a glass vase, the piano soundboard and the treatments that are between the wires in a particular area of the soundboard. most of the activity happens in a space of decay. in a mixed electronic/acoustic piece, i like having two sets of event sequences going simultaneously which pull the piece toward and away from scattering. i think the thresholds between the two are interesting to find and work with. with oulipo-style constraint systems, there's the principle o clinamen (swerve..it's from lucretius) which enables you to break them. if you find a cool threshold space, it's good to stay there a while. usually, if its a good night and the machinery is working, it's worth the chaos it generates in the frame. and the recording integrates these spaces of clinamen back into what they aren't. that's what i gots. stephen _______________________________________________ microsound mailing list microsound@... http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound |
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Re: musical structure
by Batuhan Bozkurt
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I'm not a very experienced live coder myself, but the on-stage live
coding has its own structural aesthetics especially if one wants to project his/her screen to some place for the (possibly non-programmer) audience to intellectually participate/consciously witness to the creation of the musical performance. Things usually start from very simple timbres and structural events to gradually more complex (so there is an increase in entropy in the musical/temporal events and the timbral quality) and since this is still quite a new field, the performances I've seen tend to follow the same pattern and not many groundbreaking differences in structure happen in between different performances and/or performers. Towards the end of the piece/performance, usually either the entropy decreases in the same manner or some sort of fading out trickery is involved (endings feel usually abrubt). I think this monotony in structure for live coding events is there because there aren't many virtuosic attempts on creating a really appealing live coding performance (which is also a valid attitude I think, but then some feel they'll be blamed less because they are trying something really extreme, an attitude I won't support), and the tools and the concept is quite new to performers and the audience. Maybe things will get more interesting at least varied when the computing culture rises among artists and listeners. I am not much into beat oriented stuff, but I find this live coding performance interesting and inspiring nonetheless (even though for some part it follows the same route I've explained earlier structurally, it also tries to alter the old habits in a nice way): http://yaxu.org/haskell-hack/ Best, Batuhan Bozkurt /* http://www.earslap.com */ On Sep 15, 2009, at 9:12 AM, Kim Cascone wrote: > I'm gathering some info for a lecture I'm giving about structure in > laptop music (read: electro-acoustic, noise, microsound, etc). > > What sorts of structure do people use in creating their work? > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound@... > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound _______________________________________________ microsound mailing list microsound@... http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound |
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Re: musical structure
by john saylor-3
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On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 2:12 AM, Kim Cascone <kim@...> wrote:
> What sorts of structure do people use in creating their work? i tend use superimposed time-based layers. first in terms of big blocks for approximate major time divisions. then, within the more manageable scale of the smaller divisions, i consider the algorithms to fill them in. and i keep mindful of any inter-relationships among the other sections within the scale. my attention to detail increases as the scale decreases. -- \js [ - . . . ] _______________________________________________ microsound mailing list microsound@... http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound |
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Re: musical structure
by Andrew Salch-2
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By "structure" do you mean something that inheres in the work and is
immediately detectable in it, e.g. compositional structure, or do you also include the entire means of production of the work--"structures" of production which can nevertheless fail to be detectable in the finished recorded work or in the performed piece as experienced by its audience? For example, the actual physical location at which a field recording was taken may not be recognizable or recoverable from the recording; is that particular physical location part of the "structure" used in creating the work? Sorry for the nitpicking--but I think this question of the types of structures in music is an interesting one. On Mon, 14 Sep 2009, Kim Cascone wrote: > I'm gathering some info for a lecture I'm giving about structure in laptop > music (read: electro-acoustic, noise, microsound, etc). > > What sorts of structure do people use in creating their work? > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound@... > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > _______________________________________________ microsound mailing list microsound@... http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound |
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Re: musical structure
by Bernhard Living
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As a techno producer the question of structure is a very important one for me. The first question that I need to ask myself is for whom am I making the music? If it’s for a club/dance audience, then the track needs to be built up in a fairly formulaic way. If the track veers too far off from various accepted formula, then it cease to be techno - it also stops being danceable. If I’m making a track for an audience who is expecting something more experimental, then I will take more chances and push at the structural boundaries a lot more.
Whatever I make, there is still going to be the four-on-the-floor beat (with only small variations), and the music is always built up in eight/sixteen bar sections. There’s a little rule; that is, make a minor change every eight bars, and do something a bit more dramatic every sixteen. It’s a simple and effective way to stop the listener from getting bored! For harder forms of techno, then the different sections or parts need to be fairly obvious and more dramatic. For minimal techno, then the changes in the structure should be barely noticeable, with the track slowly evolving and changing through progressive development. A minimal techno track should be built up in such a way that the listener isn’t fully aware that changes are taking place. I think ‘Rotor’ by Thomas Schumacher is a good example of this minimalist approach. When I think of structure in techno music, I often have in mind those beautiful metal box sculptures by the artist Donald Judd. b @ mu mixer On Tuesday, 15 September, 2009, at 06:12AM, "Kim Cascone" <kim@...> wrote: >I'm gathering some info for a lecture I'm giving about structure in >laptop music (read: electro-acoustic, noise, microsound, etc). > >What sorts of structure do people use in creating their work? >_______________________________________________ >microsound mailing list >microsound@... >http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > microsound mailing list microsound@... http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound |
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Re: musical structure
by traktorman@gmail.com
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>What sorts of structure do people use in creating their work?
shifting/removing ADSR points
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Re: musical structure
by Adern X
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On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 23:12:07 -0700, a Bad Day on the Midway, Kim Cascone <kim@...> wrote:
> I'm gathering some info for a lecture I'm giving about structure in > laptop music (read: electro-acoustic, noise, microsound, etc). > > What sorts of structure do people use in creating their work? In my work structure is defined by two elements: The samples (usually less than 5) filtered in various way, so 2 or 3 samples becames a pool of 20. The strategy of layer: one sample is the main loop (the canvas in pictorial terms), the others are used like lines of color or a huge mass of it. Think at a Rothko (or Mondrian or De Kooning) painting and you can have a visual explanation of the structure i use. Hi, A.X -- ( mailto: adern@... http://www.xevor.net )) |""|-. http://www.myspace.com/adernx |__|-' "Boredom is the mother of creativity" (Ron Arad) _______________________________________________ microsound mailing list microsound@... http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound |
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Re: musical structure
by Adam Davis-3
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A creative structure I like to employ is to have the music as it's own instrument a lot of the time. To overdub recycled source material/music alongside the original, untreated source material/music. To process and re-process, to extract and re-extract are my personal indulgences in rhythms that are not as obvious as a regular pulse along time, rather, more conceptual rhythms; the rhythm of the chain (including the "daisy chaining" of effects processors), the rhythm of the recycling; the rhythm of the feedback of the music as it's own instrument. Further to this structure, I like to contemplate potentially infinite recycling, remixing and results from one source, or, to go even deeper, infinite recycling from infinite sources, where such thoughts fill me with euphoric feelings that contribute to the blissful tones and atmospheres of some works.
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Re: musical structure
by David Powers-3
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Greetings,
I use the same kinds of structures in my classical/jazz/experimental piano playing as I do in electro-acoustic laptop music. Types of structures I have used include: *post-serial/pseudo-mathematical /aleatoric: composition occurs within an artificial framework characterized my numerical constraints (as in my PI-day piece) *traditional classical (sonata, rondo, etc.) *harmonic cycles (jazz standards) *narrative/signifying: defining large segments of a piece that are intended to convey a general type of mood or idea (I associate these structures with Gustav Mahler and Charles Mingus especially) In more mnml, beat oriented music, I define structure us: 1. Plateaus: Generally consistent, repetitive sound structures that may or may not evolve slowly 2. Events: Singular, unique sounds or groups of sounds that only occur once, or a limited number of times Plateaus and Events may or may not occur simultaneously A typical structure for a dance record might be: Plateau - Event - Plateau I believe the Plateau/Event structure might also apply to other forms of repetitive, minimal, ritual types music, such as certain improvisations I do with acoustic musicians in a 'world jazz' type context. ~David On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 4:28 PM, Adam Davis <technohead3d@...> wrote: > A creative structure I like to employ is to have the music as it's own > instrument a lot of the time. To overdub recycled source material/music > alongside the original, untreated source material/music. To process and > re-process, to extract and re-extract are my personal indulgences in rhythms > that are not as obvious as a regular pulse along time, rather, more > conceptual rhythms; the rhythm of the chain (including the "daisy chaining" > of effects processors), the rhythm of the recycling; the rhythm of the > feedback of the music as it's own instrument. Further to this structure, I > like to contemplate potentially infinite recycling, remixing and results > from one source, or, to go even deeper, infinite recycling from infinite > sources, where such thoughts fill me with euphoric feelings that contribute > to the blissful tones and atmospheres of some works. > > > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound@... > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > microsound mailing list microsound@... http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound |
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Re: musical structure
by flemming lyst
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i just use one sync point and let it flow...
cheers, eske http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cA4rW8UHyJc On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 8:12 AM, Kim Cascone <kim@...> wrote: I'm gathering some info for a lecture I'm giving about structure in laptop music (read: electro-acoustic, noise, microsound, etc). _______________________________________________ microsound mailing list microsound@... http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound |
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Re: musical structure
by David Powers-3
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More thoughts on musical structure--if I was to create a meta-theory
of music, I would include the following elements: *cell: any single sonic idea that is used as the basis of a work (such as a melody, harmony, rhythm, digital sample) *permutation: repetition with difference of a cell *transition: a gradual shift from one musical element to another *rhythm: linear, cyclic, or aperiodic distribution of events in time *tone: cyclic vibration with frequency, duration, timbre, amplitude *harmony: simultaneous tones *melody: sequence of tones *noise: a-periodic vibration with duration, timbre, and amplitude *texture: the overall consistency of a stable sound-object *plateau: consistent, repetitive sound structure *constraint: a set of (mathematical) rules that govern a musical structure, such as a Raga, a chord progression, serial procedure, or aleatoric procedure *slope: a gradual transition from one plateau to another *event: sound-object that is perceived as being unique and whose arrival cannot be predicted by the listener *signifier: sound-object that seems to refer to some signified which may or may not be musical ~David Powers On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 12:31 PM, flemming lyst <flemminglyst@...> wrote: > i just use one sync point and let it flow... > > > cheers, > eske > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cA4rW8UHyJc > > > > On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 8:12 AM, Kim Cascone <kim@...> wrote: >> >> I'm gathering some info for a lecture I'm giving about structure in laptop >> music (read: electro-acoustic, noise, microsound, etc). >> >> What sorts of structure do people use in creating their work? >> _______________________________________________ >> microsound mailing list >> microsound@... >> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound@... > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > microsound mailing list microsound@... http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound |
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Re: musical structure
by Paulo Mouat-2
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How would this qualify as a _meta_-theory?
//p http://www.interdisciplina.org/00.0
On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 5:38 PM, David Powers <cyborgk@...> wrote: More thoughts on musical structure--if I was to create a meta-theory _______________________________________________ microsound mailing list microsound@... http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound |
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Re: musical structure
by David Powers-3
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Sorry, that's not clear from my post, but you should be able to
theorize about different particular musical theories, such as Western musical theory, Indian classical music theory, or jazz theory, with such a theory. But what I offered was not the actual theory, only some of the necessary elements such a theory might require, that seem relevant to the question of describing musical structure. Such an account would probably also need to take into account social ecology and neuroscientific accounts of how the brain works. All I'm basically aiming at is whether it is possible to talk about diverse musical structures from different traditions using some more comprehensive language than the language of traditional musical theories which tend to only describe the set of musical practices of a single culture or subculture. ~David On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 5:25 PM, Paulo Mouat <paulo.mouat@...> wrote: > How would this qualify as a _meta_-theory? > //p > http://www.interdisciplina.org/00.0 > > On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 5:38 PM, David Powers <cyborgk@...> wrote: >> >> More thoughts on musical structure--if I was to create a meta-theory >> of music, I would include the following elements: >> >> *cell: any single sonic idea that is used as the basis of a work (such >> as a melody, harmony, rhythm, digital sample) >> *permutation: repetition with difference of a cell >> *transition: a gradual shift from one musical element to another >> *rhythm: linear, cyclic, or aperiodic distribution of events in time >> *tone: cyclic vibration with frequency, duration, timbre, amplitude >> *harmony: simultaneous tones >> *melody: sequence of tones >> *noise: a-periodic vibration with duration, timbre, and amplitude >> *texture: the overall consistency of a stable sound-object >> *plateau: consistent, repetitive sound structure >> *constraint: a set of (mathematical) rules that govern a musical >> structure, such as a Raga, a chord progression, serial procedure, or >> aleatoric procedure >> *slope: a gradual transition from one plateau to another >> *event: sound-object that is perceived as being unique and whose >> arrival cannot be predicted by the listener >> *signifier: sound-object that seems to refer to some signified which >> may or may not be musical >> >> ~David Powers >> >> On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 12:31 PM, flemming lyst <flemminglyst@...> >> wrote: >> > i just use one sync point and let it flow... >> > >> > >> > cheers, >> > eske >> > >> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cA4rW8UHyJc >> > >> > >> > >> > On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 8:12 AM, Kim Cascone <kim@...> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> I'm gathering some info for a lecture I'm giving about structure in >> >> laptop >> >> music (read: electro-acoustic, noise, microsound, etc). >> >> >> >> What sorts of structure do people use in creating their work? >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> microsound mailing list >> >> microsound@... >> >> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > microsound mailing list >> > microsound@... >> > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> microsound mailing list >> microsound@... >> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound@... > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > microsound mailing list microsound@... http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound |
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Re: musical structure
by Paulo Mouat-2
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Yes it is possible. Just mix a generous dose of Schaeffer's _Traité des objets musicaux_ with a pinch of Xenakis' _Formalized Music_ and Roads' _Microsound_ and you have everything you need.
On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 6:48 PM, David Powers <cyborgk@...> wrote: All I'm basically aiming at is whether it is possible to talk about _______________________________________________ microsound mailing list microsound@... http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound |
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Re: musical structure
by David Powers-3
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> On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 6:48 PM, David Powers <cyborgk@...> wrote:
>> >> All I'm basically aiming at is whether it is possible to talk about >> diverse musical structures from different traditions using some more >> comprehensive language than the language of traditional musical >> theories which tend to only describe the set of musical practices of a >> single culture or subculture. >> >> ~David On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 6:06 PM, Paulo Mouat <paulo.mouat@...> wrote: > Yes it is possible. Just mix a generous dose of Schaeffer's _Traité des > objets musicaux_ with a pinch of Xenakis' _Formalized Music_ and Roads' > _Microsound_ and you have everything you need. REPLY: I don't think any of those theories include culture and semiotics, without which one could not understand, say, the music of Gustav Mahler or Charles Mingus. In fact I find Xanakis and Roads to be useful but extremely limited theoretically in terms of understanding music in general. Both concentrate on very narrow, particular subsets of musical practice rather than providing any kind of account of musical practice in general. Pierre Schaeffer’s work is likely more broad but it's unavailable in English so my awareness of what it covers is rather limited. I would be interested to learn more on Schaeffer's theories if you care to explain them. Following are some other potentially interesting theories of music of which I am aware. 1. I came across the following at the website of Marcus Bittencourt, http://www.music.columbia.edu/~alessi/research_prospects.html Sounds like he has some pretty interesting ideas. Here's what he writes on the page above: ***Begin Quote*** Following the work done in my DMA dissertation, I am planning a Treatise on Musical Structure and Form for an Experimental Electroacoustic Music. In the first part of such work, I would try to define and map the idea of what is Musical Form and Structure from a point of view that is disconnected from a particular musical tradition or culture. At the core of such work would be a thorough study of Pierre Schaeffer’s Traité des Objets Musicaux (Éditions du Seuil, Paris, 1966), a very important and seminal work which is, unfortunately, still unavailable in English and therefore quite unknown in the USA. As a matter of fact, I have been studying for several years Schaeffer’s Traité because of its strong syntony with my own ideas. Schaeffer’s work is an attempt to define what is Music and what belongs to the Musical realm in a basic primitive, archetypical level disconnected from Culture. His most important accomplishments are his phenomenological study of musical listening and perception, and his idea of a solfege of sound objects, which is based on an attempt of formalizing a Morphology and a Typology of sound objects. Some of my ideas for this Treatise have already been sketched in my doctoral dissertation at Columbia University. In that essay, I analyzed how musical structures could be developed in several levels. Basically, my ideas were focused in two fronts, first, a microscopic one, which I called a Musical System, defined as being a systematic series of filtrations of the continuums of information contained inside sound itself. The second front is a macroscopic one, Musical Form, which I claimed to be the result of a judicious application of Montage technique. Here, I often used concepts borrowed from Semiotics and Film Theory. For example, I used Serguei Eisenstein's Montage theory and Andrei Tarkovsky's concept of Time Pressure to explain my special notions of Musical Time and Musical Space. I believe most of my definitions and conclusions are correct but still at a very raw state. They are in need of clarification, further exploration and amplification. In the second part of the Treatise, I would deal with issues pertaining more directly to the field of Electroacoustic Music, which I view as the most important and promising medium for an Experimental Music, as defined in my dissertation essay. Armed with my seven intensive years of experience working with Computer Music, I would return once more to Schaeffer’s Traité, this time to his breakdown of the "Electroacoustic Chain", and carefully explore and map all the main issues concerning the composition of Electroacoustic Music. First, I will work with the idea of a virtual electroacoustic lutherie, which will generalize concepts for sound pick-up, sound cataloguing, signal processing, and algorithmic composition. Second, I will propose general guidelines for an orchestration of sound objects, including a vertical orchestration (the study of simultaneities), as well as horizontal and spatial orchestrations. Finally, I will discuss sound diffusion/projection, spatialization, and Acousmatic listening. The main goal of the Treatise is to precise, at the most basic level, what are the Materials and Tools at the disposal of an Electroacoustic Music composer of the 21st century, and the nature, qualities, and possibilities of those elements, in other words, their "alchemical" properties. Regardless of aesthetic/cultural preferences, such studies would be important to anyone who wants to try to understand the nature of the organization of sounds as a form of artistic expression, and who wants to become proficient at thinking, understanding, manipulating and exploring the universe of sounds with the intention of creating Music. ***End Quote*** 2. Also particularly interesting might be this book: David Borgo. Sync or Swarm: Improvising Music in a Complex Age. "At once theoretical, practical, pedagogical, musical, and even autobiographical, Sync or Swarm is an attempt to blend contemporary science and psychology with the critical study of musical improvisation. For those who are not musically oriented, this text might seem intimidating at first given its expansive musical vocabulary, from the Phrygian mode to phase transition, and the range of musical references, from Anthony Braxton to Arnold Schoenberg..." 3. Finally, speaking of Anthony Braxton, he does have some ideas which are rather interesting about theory and ways to structure musical works. ~David _______________________________________________ microsound mailing list microsound@... http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound |
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Re: musical structure
by Paulo Mouat-2
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My mention of Xenakis and Roads were simply to fill in some gaps in Schaeffer's treatise, which doesn't cover the use of computers, statistics and other generic mathematical tools in the shaping and analysis of music. These works are culture-agnostic and therefore not bound to particular musical practices, which I thought was what you were looking for. When talking about semiotics in music, Jean-Jacques Nattiez immediately springs to mind.
//p On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 7:32 PM, David Powers <cyborgk@...> wrote:
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