mvpmc release?

[Mordechai T. Abzug-3]

I mostly use mvpmc as a mythtv frontend and for playing media over
NFS.  I've been using mvpmc 0.33 for some time now, and it's worked
reasonably well.  I tried the 0.34 upgrade, and it was awful.  But I
recently tried the 20090621 build, and it's great!  20090621 doesn't
crash frequently the way 0.33 does, it has working mythtv live TV
support, and can actually schedule mythtv at a basic level!  This is a
great release.

Any plans to package a new release?  At least in my experience,
20090621 would make for a great 0.35 or even a good 1.0.

- Morty

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[Tom Metro-10]

Mordechai T. Abzug wrote:
> Any plans to package a new release?  At least in my experience,
> 20090621 would make for a great 0.35 or even a good 1.0.

I'm not on the release team, but with activity on the project slowing
down, and the daily builds remaining stable and usable for most, a
formal release seems increasingly less likely. For most users, what
benefit does a formal release provide? (The biggest down side to the
lack of a release is that new users start with the last release and end
up using a buggier version. A web site update could correct for that.)

However, if someone is considering a release, I'd like to see the patch
mentioned below reverted, as it has kept me stuck at the 2008-06-01
nightly. I'm not sure why this issue is not widely observed. I can only
speculate that it has something to do with the fact that I have my
MythTV recording profiles for my PVR-500 set to use reduced bitrate and
resolution from the normal MythTV defaults. (I'd be happy to supply a
representative video clip for anyone interested.) Back when I first made
those changes in 2007, I started having audio problems in mvpmc, which
were later corrected by changes to mvpmc, and apparently degraded by the
patch mentioned below.

 -Tom


Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2008 08:46:11 -0400
From: Tom Metro
Subject: Re: [Mvpmc-users] A/V sync deteriorating

MVallevand wrote:
> Tom Metro wrote:
>> Have there been any changes to the A/V sync code in the past few months?
>> I've noticed that when resuming playback in the MythTV client of mvpmc
>
> If it's anything new I'd check a daily 2008-06-02 when the
> experimental support for audio only video was added.

I downgraded to dongle.bin.mvpmc-20080601 and there is a clear
difference noticeable after just a few days of testing, so I think that
was it. Thanks Martin.

Can that patch be reverted, or can we try a different approach?

  -Tom


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[Michael Drons]

----- Original Message ----

From: Tom Metro <tmetro+mvpmc-users@...>
To: Mordechai T. Abzug <morty+mvpmc@...>
Cc: L-mvpmc-users <mvpmc-users@...>
Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2009 4:44:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Mvpmc-users] mvpmc release?

Mordechai T. Abzug wrote:
> Any plans to package a new release?  At least in my experience,
> 20090621 would make for a great 0.35 or even a good 1.0.

I'm not on the release team, but with activity on the project slowing
down, and the daily builds remaining stable and usable for most, a
formal release seems increasingly less likely. For most users, what
benefit does a formal release provide? (The biggest down side to the
lack of a release is that new users start with the last release and end
up using a buggier version. A web site update could correct for that.)

However, if someone is considering a release, I'd like to see the patch
mentioned below reverted, as it has kept me stuck at the 2008-06-01
nightly. I'm not sure why this issue is not widely observed. I can only
speculate that it has something to do with the fact that I have my
MythTV recording profiles for my PVR-500 set to use reduced bitrate and
resolution from the normal MythTV defaults. (I'd be happy to supply a
representative video clip for anyone interested.) Back when I first made
those changes in 2007, I started having audio problems in mvpmc, which
were later corrected by changes to mvpmc, and apparently degraded by the
patch mentioned below.

-Tom


Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2008 08:46:11 -0400
From: Tom Metro
Subject: Re: [Mvpmc-users] A/V sync deteriorating

MVallevand wrote:
> Tom Metro wrote:
>> Have there been any changes to the A/V sync code in the past few months?
>> I've noticed that when resuming playback in the MythTV client of mvpmc
>
> If it's anything new I'd check a daily 2008-06-02 when the
> experimental support for audio only video was added.

I downgraded to dongle.bin.mvpmc-20080601 and there is a clear
difference noticeable after just a few days of testing, so I think that
was it. Thanks Martin.

Can that patch be reverted, or can we try a different approach?

  -Tom


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Tom,
I would be happy to test and look at the issue.  What are your
current recording settings?  Let me see if I can reproduce the issue.
Also, supply the sample so I can see what you see.  

Thanks, Mike


     

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[Tom Metro-10]

Michael Drons wrote:
> Tom Metro wrote:
>> (I'd be happy to supply a representative video clip for anyone
>> interested.) Back when I first made those changes in 2007, I started
>> having audio problems in mvpmc, which were later corrected by changes
>> to mvpmc, and apparently degraded by the patch mentioned below.
>
> I would be happy to test and look at the issue.

Thanks!


> What are your current recording settings?

To save storage space, I stepped down the recording settings used for my
PVR-500 per some recommendations found on the MythTV wiki. The vast
majority of the recordings are performed using the default profile, with
some using the low quality profile.

Default
Video: W: 352, H: 480, BR: 2000, Max BR: 4000
Audio: SR: 48KHz, BR: 384Kbps

Low Quality
Video: W: 352, H: 240, BR: 1200, Max BR: 2500
Audio: SR: 48KHz, BR: 320Kbps

If I recall correctly, the problem is more pronounced when using the low
quality profile.

Here's the July 2008 thread where I originally described the symptoms:
http://www.nabble.com/A-V-sync-deteriorating-td18435104s24861.html


> Also, supply the sample so I can see what you see.  

This will take a few days. I'll try a current nightly and confirm that
the problem is still reproducible, and then identify a short clip and
set of steps to reproduce.

  -Tom

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[Mordechai T. Abzug-3]

On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 04:44:22PM -0400, Tom Metro wrote:

> I'm not on the release team, but with activity on the project
> slowing down, and the daily builds remaining stable and usable for
> most, a formal release seems increasingly less likely. For most
> users, what benefit does a formal release provide? (The biggest down
> side to the lack of a release is that new users start with the last
> release and end up using a buggier version. A web site update could
> correct for that.)

The benefit is making the project look actively maintained.  If I were
looking to buy hardware for a myth frontend right now, I would look at
the mvpmc website and be nervous because there had been no releases in
1.5 years.

- Morty

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[Eric Sharkey-3]

On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 5:25 PM, Mordechai T.
Abzug<morty+mvpmc@...> wrote:
> If I were
> looking to buy hardware for a myth frontend right now, I would look at
> the mvpmc website and be nervous because there had been no releases in
> 1.5 years.

You could say the same about MythTV itself.

Eric

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[MVallevand]

On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 9:25 PM, Mordechai T. Abzug<morty+mvpmc@...>
> The benefit is making the project look actively maintained.  If I were
> looking to buy hardware for a myth frontend right now, I would look at
> the mvpmc website and be nervous because there had been no releases in
> 1.5 years.

I have been trying to get some active participation in development of
mvpmc for the Popcorn Hour and I take the lack of interest partly to
mean that many people are happy with their MVP.  I've got an ASRock
ION 330 too but I prefer the PCH.

Martin

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[Tom Metro-10]

Eric Sharkey wrote:
> Mordechai T. Abzug wrote:
>> ...be nervous because there had been no releases in 1.5 years.
>
> You could say the same about MythTV itself.

True, the MythTV project is known for having infrequent releases, but it
has an established history of that, so unless you're referring to some
other evidence of the project's lack of vitality, anyone looking into it
would see that's the norm.


Mordechai T. Abzug wrote:
> Tom Metro wrote:
>> ...what benefit does a formal release provide?
>
> The benefit is making the project look actively maintained.  If I were
> looking to buy hardware for a myth frontend right now, I would look at
> the mvpmc website and be nervous because there had been no releases in
> 1.5 years.

But that isn't an inaccurate impression, and I don't think anyone
involved with mvpmc has any motivation or interest in portraying the
project as anything more than it is.

The lack of releases is an accurate reflection of slowing development
and declining interested in mvpmc - at least on the MVP hardware. I've
been a big supporter of mvpmc and have recommended it often in other
venues, but these days I'd be hard pressed to recommend it to someone
just starting out with MythTV at this time. And this isn't because of
mvpmc, but because the original MVP hardware just isn't up to it.

MVP was a good solution for analog SD video digitized with a Hauppauge
PVR card. Cheap, compact, low-power, and good usability. But analog
video is becoming scarce, even on cable systems. (More and more cable
system in the Boston area are discontinuing analog service to free up
bandwidth for highly comressed digital channels.) It's not so compelling
to recommend a solution that requires everything to be transcoded, and
then only does SD.


MVallevand wrote:
> I have been trying to get some active participation in development of
> mvpmc for the Popcorn Hour and I take the lack of interest partly to
> mean that many people are happy with their MVP.  I've got an ASRock
> ION 330 too but I prefer the PCH.

I'd love to see mvpmc successfully ported to new hardware, but haven't
gotten personally involved because the MVP solution I'm using is still
working adequately for the time being. But of course I expect that to
change at some point, and I welcome discussion that helps me and others
consider the best path forward.

One thing I'd like to avoid is a platform that is too dependent on
hardware decoding that has a limited audience of developers. There are
just too many video formats and variations within those formats that
just about any hardware assisted decoder ends up not being able to
handle a lot of stuff compared to a main stream media player, like VLC.
I want a VLC-like engine wrapped in a TV UI.

This makes me more skeptical of the PCH, and think that the NVIDIA Ion
platforms may hold more potential, if the underlying video decoding
hardware ends up widely deployed among both appliances, nettops, and
desktops, and thus supported by mainstream media players. (I haven't
been following it, but supposedly they're working on NVIDIA Ion support
in MythTV.)

It's too soon to say. The only ASRock ION 330 I see for sale is one on
eBay for $440, but I guess there are a bunch of products in this field.
It'll be more interesting when you can get a complete solution (less
software) in the $200 range.

  -Tom

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[Eric Sharkey-3]

On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 9:28 PM, Tom Metro<tmetro+mvpmc-users@...> wrote:
> This makes me more skeptical of the PCH, and think that the NVIDIA Ion
> platforms may hold more potential, if the underlying video decoding
> hardware ends up widely deployed among both appliances, nettops, and
> desktops, and thus supported by mainstream media players. (I haven't
> been following it, but supposedly they're working on NVIDIA Ion support
> in MythTV.)

Yes, you're absolutely right on all counts.

Nvidia Ion support is a subset of general nvidia VDPAU support, which
is implemented in the MythTV development branch and some unofficial
patches for the stable branch.  There's a lot of buzz about this.
People who have gotten it working are generally very happy with it.

> It's too soon to say. The only ASRock ION 330 I see for sale is one on
> eBay for $440, but I guess there are a bunch of products in this field.
> It'll be more interesting when you can get a complete solution (less
> software) in the $200 range.

We're almost there.

The one I've been looking at is the Acer Aspire Revo, which is out in
Europe and Australia but I haven't found a vendor in the States yet.

This site in the U.K. has them and will ship them for free to the
states for US $269.71:

http://www.electronicmegastore.com/acer-aspire-revo-desktop-pc-atom-230-p-3249.html?zenid=66bmnm0kicn00jgh20f0789qv0

    * NVIDIA® ION™ graphics processors transform today’s low-power PC
designs into a premium experience.
    * NVIDIA® ION™ graphics processors turn up the visuals at a
fraction of the size.
    * NVIDIA® ION™ graphics processors bring DirectX 10 graphics,
stunning HD video, NVIDIA® CUDA™ technology, and Windows Vista Premium
to the smallest form factors.
Processor
    * Intel® Atom™ 230 processor
    * NVIDIA® ION™ chipset
Memory
    * 1GB DDR2 SDRAM 667MHz
    * dual-channel support on two DIMMs
Hard Drive
    * 160GB Hard Drive
Optical Drive
    * No Optical Drive
Software
    * Operating System: Linux
    * Acer GameZone
    * eSobi™
    * McAfee® Internet Security Suite 2008 (Trial)
    * Adobe® Reader®
Bios
    * AMI PnP BIOS compatible with SMBIOS 2.4
Display
    * Monitor Not Included
Graphics
    * NVIDIA® ION™ graphics solution
Audio
    * High-definition audio support
Input Devices
    * Mouse and Keyboard
    * Games Controller – not included
Networking
    * Gigabit Ethernet, Wake-on-LAN ready
    * WLAN: 802.11 b/g/Draft-N
Power Supply
    * 65W adapter with power cord
Dimensions
    * 180 (L) mm
    * 180 (H) mm
    * 30 (W) mm (without bezel)
Interfaces
    * 6 x USB 2.0 ports
    * Four-in-one card reader
    * High-definition headphone and microphone jacks
    * 1 x DC-in jack
    * 1 x Ethernet (RJ-45) port
    * 1 x D-sub VGA port
    * 1 x HDMI™ port
    * 1 x eSATA port
Expansion
    * One Mini PCI Express® slot
    * Four-in-one card reader, supporting: MultiMediaCard (MMC),
Secure Digital™ (SD) Card, xD-Picture Card™ Memory Stick™
Warranty
    * 1 Year Manufacturer Warranty

I'm seriously tempted by these, but I'm concerned by the complete lack
of US vendors.

Eric

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[MVallevand]

On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 10:25 PM, Eric Sharkey<eric@...> wrote:
> Processor
>    * Intel® Atom™ 230 processor

I think the verdict is still out on the 230 vs 330.  In using the 230
I find it slow.

>    * 1GB DDR2 SDRAM 667MHz

The XBMC forums say 4GB is preferred over 2GB for playback so this
might be another gotcha.

The only thing missing on the ION is analog (component and SD)  which
is one of the PCH's strengths.  Having full access to ALLcontent on
the older SD TV's is not considered as important as I think it is.

Martin

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[Mordechai T. Abzug-3]

On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 07:30:27PM -0400, Eric Sharkey wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 5:25 PM, Mordechai T.
> Abzug<morty+mvpmc@...> wrote:
> > If I were
> > looking to buy hardware for a myth frontend right now, I would look at
> > the mvpmc website and be nervous because there had been no releases in
> > 1.5 years.
>
> You could say the same about MythTV itself.

mythtv released 0.21 in 2008-03.  mvpmc released 0.34 in 2007-11.  So
mythtv has revved more recently than mvpmc.  So a user might think
that mvpmc might not support the latest mythtv.  Sure enough, mvpmc
0.34 does not work with mythtv 0.21.  However, mvpmc *has*, in fact,
patched mvpmc to support mythtv 0.21.  So it would behoove mvpmc to
release a new version so the website makes it clear that you have, in
fact, kept up-to-date.

- Morty

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[Mordechai T. Abzug-3]

On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 09:28:29PM -0400, Tom Metro wrote:

> > The benefit is making the project look actively maintained.  If I were
> > looking to buy hardware for a myth frontend right now, I would look at
> > the mvpmc website and be nervous because there had been no releases in
> > 1.5 years.

> But that isn't an inaccurate impression, and I don't think anyone
> involved with mvpmc has any motivation or interest in portraying the
> project as anything more than it is.

While mvpmc isn't getting a lot of new features, it has been updated
to reflect the new mythtv protocol.  Looks like there has been some
commit activity every month or two for a while.  In my book, that
means that mvpmc is being maintained.

- Morty

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[Eric Sharkey-3]

On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 10:43 PM, MVallevand<mvallevand@...> wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 10:25 PM, Eric Sharkey<eric@...> wrote:
>> Processor
>>    * Intel® Atom™ 230 processor
>
> I think the verdict is still out on the 230 vs 330.  In using the 230
> I find it slow.

s/verdict/jury/ ?

It's a tough call to make.  I want something dead silent and I'm
prepared to put up with a little slowness if I can get it.  I've read
that the 330 uses more power and needs more cooling.

>>    * 1GB DDR2 SDRAM 667MHz
>
> The XBMC forums say 4GB is preferred over 2GB for playback so this
> might be another gotcha.

The Revo supports up to 2GB.  I have a really hard time imagining why
more than 2GB would be needed for video playback, even at 1080p.

> The only thing missing on the ION is analog (component and SD)  which
> is one of the PCH's strengths.  Having full access to ALLcontent on
> the older SD TV's is not considered as important as I think it is.

I replaced my last 480i set a couple of months ago.  I hadn't planned
on it, but the old set failed and I wasn't about to buy another.  So
at the moment, my mvp is connected to a 24" 1080p set.

Eric

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[Tom Metro-10]

Mordechai T. Abzug wrote:
> ...a user might think that mvpmc might not support the latest mythtv.
> Sure enough, mvpmc 0.34 does not work with mythtv 0.21.  However,
> mvpmc *has*, in fact, patched mvpmc to support mythtv 0.21.

Good point, and I have no objections to making a release, but...


> So it would behoove mvpmc to release a new version so the website
> makes it clear that you have, in fact, kept up-to-date.

...given the stability of the nightly builds, a lower maintenance option
for the devs would be to point the web site to the nightly builds.

  -Tom

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[Michael Drons]

Tom,
I made the changes to my mythtv recording profile low and used my windows mythfrontend client (http://www.sudu.dk/mythtvplayer/) and also see audio sync issues.  

If you set them back to default does the issue go away?

Mike



----- Original Message ----
From: Tom Metro <tmetro+mvpmc-users@...>
To: Michael Drons <mdrons@...>
Cc: L-mvpmc-users <mvpmc-users@...>
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 5:09:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Mvpmc-users] mvpmc release?

Michael Drons wrote:
> Tom Metro wrote:
>> (I'd be happy to supply a representative video clip for anyone
>> interested.) Back when I first made those changes in 2007, I started
>> having audio problems in mvpmc, which were later corrected by changes
>> to mvpmc, and apparently degraded by the patch mentioned below.
>
> I would be happy to test and look at the issue.

Thanks!


> What are your current recording settings?

To save storage space, I stepped down the recording settings used for my PVR-500 per some recommendations found on the MythTV wiki. The vast majority of the recordings are performed using the default profile, with some using the low quality profile.

Default
Video: W: 352, H: 480, BR: 2000, Max BR: 4000
Audio: SR: 48KHz, BR: 384Kbps

Low Quality
Video: W: 352, H: 240, BR: 1200, Max BR: 2500
Audio: SR: 48KHz, BR: 320Kbps

If I recall correctly, the problem is more pronounced when using the low quality profile.

Here's the July 2008 thread where I originally described the symptoms:
http://www.nabble.com/A-V-sync-deteriorating-td18435104s24861.html


> Also, supply the sample so I can see what you see.  

This will take a few days. I'll try a current nightly and confirm that the problem is still reproducible, and then identify a short clip and set of steps to reproduce.

-Tom



     

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[Tom Metro-10]

Michael Drons wrote:
> I made the changes to my mythtv recording profile low and used my
> windows mythfrontend client (http://www.sudu.dk/mythtvplayer/) and
> also see audio sync issues.

You saw audio sync problems in your windows mythfrontend client? How
about in mvpmc?

When I use a traditional Linux MythTV front-end, I don't have sync
issues, regardless of the recording profile settings.


> If you set them back to default does the issue go away?

I would presume so, given that the audio sync was decent with the
2007-era mvpmc prior to my tweaking of the settings. As I noted
previously, a while after I tweaked the settings, mvpmc was improved,
and the problems went away until the 2008-06-02 commit.

But I can try that experiment once I get a chance to boot up a current
nightly.

  -Tom

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