need help debugging highlighting on hardware players

[S Mann]

I'm completely new to dvd authoring and using dvdauthor tools.  I have
two standalone dvd players for testing, a Pioneer DV-333 and a Toshiba
SD-3950, and am having difficulty generating a menu with my preferred
dvdauthor frontend where the highlighting action works properly on both
players.  At this point I don't know if this is a problem with dvdauthor
or with the frontend app generating less than optimal script and am
hoping someone can offer advice.

Here is an example of a simple one page menu with two buttons with
highlighting action that DOES work properly on both players. When I
press an arrow key I see the highlighting change from one button to the
next. This was generated by Bombono 1.2.0 on Ubuntu 10.04 which uses
dvdauthor 0.6.14:

dvdauthor.xml: http://pastebin.com/fH59K40A
menu.xml: http://pastebin.com/9A8zbaaT

Here is a second example where the highlighting works properly on the
Pioneer DV-333 but does NOT work properly on the Toshiba SD-3950.  This
is a different menu but is still a simple single page with two buttons.
  This was generated by DVDStyler 2.1b2 on WinXP Pro SP3 which uses
dvdauthor 0.7.0 but identical broken highlighting behavior is observed
with DVDStyler 1.8.0 which uses dvdauthor 0.6.14:

dvdauthor.xml: http://pastebin.com/uribUNC5
menu.xml: http://pastebin.com/Xbrge3PA

While functioning fine on the Pioneer the behavior on the Toshiba is
that when an arrow key is pressed the button is invisibly selected but
there is no visible change in the highlighting action.  If button 1 is
the default initial selection it will be highlighted but pressing any
arrow key any number of times will never move the highlighting to button
2 on the Toshiba.

Can anyone look at these scripts and tell me if there is something
obvious going on that might cause highlighting to work on one player but
not the other?

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[Lawrence D'Oliveiro-2]

On Sun, 04 Dec 2011 13:29:32 -0500, S Mann wrote:

> menu.xml: http://pastebin.com/Xbrge3PA
>
> While functioning fine on the Pioneer the behavior on the Toshiba is
> that when an arrow key is pressed the button is invisibly selected
> but there is no visible change in the highlighting action.

I notice you don’t specify the up/down/left/right relationships between
the buttons. These are only inferred automatically by spumux if you tell
it “autooutline="infer"”.

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[Lawrence D'Oliveiro-2]

I wrote:

> I notice you don’t specify the up/down/left/right relationships
> between the buttons. These are only inferred automatically by spumux
> if you tell it “autooutline="infer"”.  

Sorry, that of course is wrong. autooutline means for spumux to figure
out where the buttons are itself, not their relationships, which can
always be defaulted.

My next idea is that there is something odd about the menu images
themselves. Can you post those?

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[S Mann]

On 12/4/2011 7:15 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> My next idea is that there is something odd about the menu images
> themselves. Can you post those?

This is actually a different project than the .xml that I linked earlier
but is still a two button page that works on the Pioneer but does not
work on the Toshiba.

broken on Toshiba, works on Pioneer:
http://www.divshare.com/download/16317037-196

works on both Toshiba and Pioneer:
http://www.divshare.com/download/16317035-b7b

I can open the menu mpg that DVDStyler generates with AviDemux and look
at it but for whatever reason AviDemux will not open the ones that
Bombono generates.

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[Lawrence D'Oliveiro-2]

On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 01:16:41 -0500, S Mann wrote:

> This is actually a different project than the .xml that I linked
> earlier but is still a two button page that works on the Pioneer but
> does not work on the Toshiba.
>
> broken on Toshiba, works on Pioneer:
> http://www.divshare.com/download/16317037-196

Looking at the PNG files with Gimp, menu1-0.mpg_buttons.png has nothing
in it but transparent pixels. The highlight and select images contain
just a frame on one side and a line on the other. What exactly do you
see on your Pioneer?

> works on both Toshiba and Pioneer:
> http://www.divshare.com/download/16317035-b7b

In this one, Menu.png contains two full-colour thumbnails against a
black background, with two numbers below them. MenuHighlight.png
contains two translucent yellow rectangles, while MenuSelect.png
contains two pink ones, presumably covering those thumbnails.

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[S Mann]

On 12/5/2011 5:34 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> Looking at the PNG files with Gimp, menu1-0.mpg_buttons.png has nothing
> in it but transparent pixels. The highlight and select images contain
> just a frame on one side and a line on the other. What exactly do you
> see on your Pioneer?

The default highlight is the line.  It underlines the words "Play all".
  Pressing an up/down arrow key toggles between the line and the frame.
  When the frame is highlighted it's outline changes from blue to
white/light gray.  This works on the Pioneer DV-333, VLC on Windows and
Ubuntu, XBMC on Windows and Ubuntu, and MythTV's internal software DVD
player on Ubuntu.

It does not work on the Toshiba.  The Toshiba will display the line
under "Play all" but pressing the up arrow key results in no visible
change on the screen.  The frame, although now selected, remains blue
and the white line remains under "Play all".  Once the enter button is
pressed the frame will momentarily flash white and the video will play.

This is one of the default example templates provided with DVDStyler.  I
thought it would be good to test with as it was something that hadn't
really been manipulated by me.  I've created at least a dozen different
menus, trying different types of buttons and settings with DVDStyler and
absolutely nothing I have tried works on the Toshiba.  In every case the
highlighting action will not change with an arrow key press.  The only
time a visible change is seen on the screen is after you press the enter
key.  The result of this is that any kind of menu is unnavigable as you
have no visual feedback as to what is actually selected on the screen.

Taking it a step further, someone on the DVDStyler help forum was nice
enough to link an iso they created with a two button menu in which there
are two text buttons and the highlighting action will toggle underlining
between them.  This also does not work on the Toshiba.

> In this one, Menu.png contains two full-colour thumbnails against a
> black background, with two numbers below them. MenuHighlight.png
> contains two translucent yellow rectangles, while MenuSelect.png
> contains two pink ones, presumably covering those thumbnails.

In this one the default highlight is that thumbnail 1 is overlaid with
the yellow rectangle and pressing the arrow keys will then cause
thumbnail 2 to be overlaid with yellow.  This works properly on all of
my players, software and hardware.  On the Toshiba pressing an arrow key
immediately results in a visual change on the screen with one or the
other thumbnails being overlaid with yellow as expected.

It kind of seems like this Toshiba is either ignoring or strictly
following some spec that the the Pioneer and all the software players
are not.  Clearly dvdauthor can output something that works on the
Toshiba as the Bombono output demonstrates but absolutely nothing that
DVDStyler outputs works on it.  I've tried all 4 of the unmodified
default templates provided with DVDStyler and they all behave exactly
the same on the Toshiba.

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[Lawrence D'Oliveiro-2]

On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 14:47:03 -0500, S Mann wrote:

> It kind of seems like this Toshiba is either ignoring or strictly
> following some spec that the the Pioneer and all the software players
> are not.

Just another idea, I notice that the y0 and y1 coordinates on your
“broken” example are both odd, whereas on the “works” one, the y1
values at least are even.

There is a note in the spumux(1) man page that odd y-values may not be
desirable, because of interlacing.

Maybe try adjusting the y-coordinates to be even and see if that makes
any difference?

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[S Mann]

On 12/5/2011 9:06 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> Maybe try adjusting the y-coordinates to be even and see if that makes
> any difference?

I've tested this, confirming that y-coordinates are even in menu.xml and
that no warnings are outputted during the build and there is no change
in the behavior.

I've also look through the Toshiba's internal hardware settings menus
and toggled just about every setting with no effect.  It's a progressive
converting player and I half wondered if any of that functionality was
in some way interfering with how the menu was being drawn but there is
no change in behavior with progressive conversion enabled or disabled.
I should also mention that I've tested a range of old and new
commercially produced Hollywood dvds in it and the menus in those all
operate fine.

Am I correct in that there are three states of a button?  Normal,
highlighted and selected?  The Toshiba show me normal and selected but
never highlighted.  What actually occurs internally when I press an
arrow key on the remote and change the a button's state from normal to
highlighted?  The Toshiba knows I've selected a given button it just
never bothers to draw the highlighting or refresh the screen or
something.  Somehow with the Bombono created menu it does know to update
the screen.



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[S Mann]

On 12/5/2011 11:52 PM, S Mann wrote:
>  The Toshiba show me normal and selected but
> never highlighted.

Actually that's not accurate wording.  It shows normal, highlighted and
selected but never shows a change from one highlighted button to another
when pressing an arrow key.


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[Lawrence D'Oliveiro-2]

On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 23:52:05 -0500, S Mann wrote:

> Am I correct in that there are three states of a button?  Normal,
> highlighted and selected?

Yes, that’s right. “Highlighted” is the one that you have currently
moved to with the button. When you press OK, it is supposed to briefly
show the “selected” state before triggering the action.

At least, that is my understanding of the terminology used at sites
like mpucoder.com.

You don’t have to provide all three images; for example, I commonly
leave out the “normal” one, and just show the menu background image
unmodified in that state.

> The Toshiba show me normal and selected but never highlighted.

Probably you mean normal and highlighted but never selected. My Pioneer
DVD-video recorder (now defunct) was the same.

> Somehow with the Bombono created menu it does know to update the screen.

All I can suggest is, keep trying to narrow it down. Maybe create
exactly the same design, as far as possible, with both packages.

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[S Mann]

On 12/6/2011 1:09 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> All I can suggest is, keep trying to narrow it down. Maybe create
> exactly the same design, as far as possible, with both packages.

I figured out what was causing the issue.  In trying to make the
DVDStyler output more like the Bombono output I looked at the menu mpg.
  DVDStyler defaults to creating a menu with 100 frames.  I changed this
to 1 frame and now the Toshiba works properly.  Thus far I've tested 1,
2 and 30 frame menus.  1 and 2 frames work but 30 frames does not.

Is there an actual defined standard as to how many frames are allowed in
a menu?


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[Lawrence D'Oliveiro-2]

On Tue, 06 Dec 2011 02:06:26 -0500, S Mann wrote:

> Is there an actual defined standard as to how many frames are allowed
> in a menu?

No, because menus can be animated, just like titles. A menu is little
different from a title, except (possibly not a complete list):

* It must fit within one .VOB file.
* It cannot have multiple alternative audio and subpicture streams for
  different languages, since the menu itself has a language setting.

(Others feel free to add/correct the above)

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[S Mann]

On 12/6/2011 3:54 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> No, because menus can be animated, just like titles. A menu is little
> different from a title, except (possibly not a complete list):
>
> * It must fit within one .VOB file.
> * It cannot have multiple alternative audio and subpicture streams for
>    different languages, since the menu itself has a language setting.

Well I do appreciate the help even though clearly the issue was not
dvdauthor.

Do you know anything else in regards to why there would be such a
difference in how two different hardware players would deal with a menu
mpg?  The Pioneer is something like 12 years old and the Toshiba is
probably only 5 years old or so.  I guess I'm trying understand if the
frame count is the actual core issue or if by adjusting the frame count
downward I am actually affecting some other hidden variable.

If this Toshiba refuses to operate a menu when the frame count is as low
as 30 how could it be expected to operate with any kind of animated menu?




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[Lawrence D'Oliveiro-2]

On Tue, 06 Dec 2011 21:40:42 -0500, S Mann wrote:

> If this Toshiba refuses to operate a menu when the frame count is as
> low as 30 how could it be expected to operate with any kind of
> animated menu?

Good question. I don’t know. But animated menus are commonly found on
commercial discs; are you able to find one and try it?

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[S Mann]

On 12/6/2011 9:53 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> Good question. I don’t know. But animated menus are commonly found on
> commercial discs; are you able to find one and try it?

I don't have an answer yet on the animated menu matter as I'm not sure
if I have a dvd handy that would accurately test that question.  If
anyone has a link to a smallish example iso that would be helpful.

Just for reference, or until I learn otherwise, 12 seems to be the
correct number of frames for a still menu.  This was suggested to me on
the videohelp.com forums as being the minimum GOP size that is
compatible with both PAL and NTSC.  Sure enough, a frame count of 12
produces menus that work properly in all my players.  This NTSC Toshiba
exhibits mostly broken highlighting behavior with menu frame count
values of 15.  At 15 frames if you press an arrow key enough times it
may or may not change the highlighting.  At 17 frames and higher it is
completely broken.

Out of curiosity I also tested multiples of 12 but this also results in
completely broken highlighting.


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