not amused...

[Steffen Ritter-2]

Hey folks,
I'm just not amused about the things on core-list the last weeks/months.

There are mighty of patches which are worthy and big improovements on
TYPO3. Many of them just miss one core review. Others are even not
commented by any core-dev...

There seems to be some "fights" between some coredevs which do not like
each other, not reviewing or general critizing patches from other ones.

At all at the moment there seems to be more non-core activity on
core-list than core-team members.

To me a core-dev is sth. more than someone who only wants getting in the
patches he/his agency are in favor of...

I know that we are all under a lot of work, some people might be on
holidays and I know that - for many of us - core work is freetime.
BUT: I'm really concerned about TYPO3 getting "behind" and building a
gap between "the state of art", "other systems" and whishes of the users...

If the system of a of needed core-devs votes does not work anymore or
just by now, we have to think about it. We really need some more
"progress" less "cat fights"...

I feel sad about how many potential is on list, ideas are around and
people who are willingly to contribute. "Inspiring people to share"? To
share and forget about it? As long as Participating people are not
supported enough this is not more than an blasphemous byword...

And yes, before you gonna blame me: I did not test every patch too...

Just my 2 cents, about the the development on core list in the last
month's. For sure, some parts mights be exaggerated, hoping people start
thinking about it.

Have a nice first september

regards

Steffen
_______________________________________________
TYPO3-dev mailing list
TYPO3-dev@...
http://lists.netfielders.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/typo3-dev

[Steffen Gebert]

On Tue, 01 Sep 2009 08:40:59 +0200, Steffen Ritter <info@...>
wrote:

> There seems to be some "fights" between some coredevs which do not like  
> each other, not reviewing or general critizing patches from other ones.
> ...
> I know that we are all under a lot of work, some people might be on  
> holidays and I know that - for many of us - core work is freetime.
> BUT: I'm really concerned about TYPO3 getting "behind" and building a  
> gap between "the state of art", "other systems" and whishes of the  
> users...
> ...
> I feel sad about how many potential is on list, ideas are around and  
> people who are willingly to contribute. "Inspiring people to share"? To  
> share and forget about it? As long as Participating people are not  
> supported enough this is not more than an blasphemous byword...

+1

I really hoped there would be more activity on the list by core-devs on
the day before FF, bringing more features into 4.3, for which authors
spent several hours.
Of course, not everything can't get in and I also don't want to blame any
(core-)devs.

Nevertheless I have the same feelings about factions of core developers
(kind of "ignoring" other factions or often only chalking up missing
documentation).

Regards
Steffen
_______________________________________________
TYPO3-dev mailing list
TYPO3-dev@...
http://lists.netfielders.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/typo3-dev

[François Suter]

Hi both Steffens,

I can understand that you feel some disappointment. Feature freeze is
never a nice time, because that's when some stuff gets left out and it
is obviously a bitter moment, especially for those who suggested or
promoted some of this stuff. Nevertheless there's a time when feature
freeze must happen, lest new features never get released.

The core team is a rather large group and there are of course personal
likes and dislikes as in every group. Clashes happen and may give a
general bad impression, but I think that - in general - the core team
works well as a team. Things could be improved and we certainly want to
do that in the future.

> I really hoped there would be more activity on the list by core-devs on
> the day before FF, bringing more features into 4.3, for which authors
> spent several hours.
> Of course, not everything can't get in and I also don't want to blame any
> (core-)devs.

As Steffen Ritter mentioned, we are indeed all volunteers. TYPO3 (v4)
doesn't have a single "professional" (as in "full-time") core team
member. We work mostly outside of job and family hours. Actually I am
always amazed that we got so far with such an amateur structure (and I
don't mean "amateur" in terms of skills, but "amateur" in terms of not
being paid for the work).

There's no company behind TYPO3 like there is for other open source
projects, there have been also no investments, not venture capital. We
work on a shoe-string budget and we still manage to do a pretty good
piece of software given the conditions.

A lot of agencies out there are making a lot of money with TYPO3 and
don't invest a single penny in its development. Does that sound right?

So we do what we can and, yes, in that limited time we give preference
to RFCs that matter more to us. This doesn't mean that other RFCs are
not good.

What would really improve the situation would be if we released versions
more often. If you knew that you just had to wait 6 months for new
features, it would be less of a heartbreak than a 18 months wait. We
dearly wanted to release 4.3 much earlier, but it didn't happen for a
whole lot of reasons. Manpower, again, is one of them.

> Nevertheless I have the same feelings about factions of core
> developers (kind of "ignoring" other factions or often only chalking
> up missing documentation).

I feel personnally addressed by that remark, as I have often sent
reminders about missing documentation. Maybe you feel that documentation
is not important. That's not my point of view. There are already many
things which are not documented at all or not properly. At least I try
to keep track of what new features get in and make sure these are
documented.

I think documentation is a vital part of a project. TYPO3 used to have a
brilliant documentation. Many docs are now old or even obsolete and this
is not good. Modestly I try to improve the situation.

Cheers

--

Francois Suter
Cobweb Development Sarl - http://www.cobweb.ch
_______________________________________________
TYPO3-dev mailing list
TYPO3-dev@...
http://lists.netfielders.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/typo3-dev

[Steffen Gebert]

Hi Francois,

thans for your answer!

> What would really improve the situation would be if we released versions
> more often. If you knew that you just had to wait 6 months for new
> features, it would be less of a heartbreak than a 18 months wait. We
> dearly wanted to release 4.3 much earlier, but it didn't happen for a
> whole lot of reasons. Manpower, again, is one of them.
Yes, I really think shorter release cycles would improve TYPO3 (and it's  
developement) a lot!

>> Nevertheless I have the same feelings about factions of core
>> developers (kind of "ignoring" other factions or often only chalking
>> up missing documentation).
>
> I feel personnally addressed by that remark, as I have often sent
> reminders about missing documentation. Maybe you feel that documentation
> is not important. That's not my point of view. There are already many
> things which are not documented at all or not properly. At least I try
> to keep track of what new features get in and make sure these are
> documented.

Documentation is very important, of course! I was really happy to see your  
service documentation and immediately started implementing an own login  
service (checking weather a user has paid his setup fee after X months).

What I had in mind during writing these lines were postings, where answers  
only containing sth. like "there's no documentation with your patch, so  
-1" and postings from other people like "documentation will be added  
tomorrow", where nobody objected (and I have a feeling to see tendencies).

So nothing against documentation - IMHO a docu has to be submitted with  
patches (which need docu)!

Steffen
_______________________________________________
TYPO3-dev mailing list
TYPO3-dev@...
http://lists.netfielders.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/typo3-dev

[Franz Holzinger-2]

Steffen Ritter a écrit :

> I'm just not amused about the things on core-list the last weeks/months.

> There are mighty of patches which are worthy and big improovements on
> TYPO3. Many of them just miss one core review. Others are even not
> commented by any core-dev...

This is a deadlock situation for most developers and also some Core
developers. This topic has already been discussed many years ago without
any improvement.

- Franz

_______________________________________________
TYPO3-dev mailing list
TYPO3-dev@...
http://lists.netfielders.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/typo3-dev

[Philipp Gampe-2]

Am 01.09.2009, 14:57 Uhr, schrieb Franz Holzinger <franz@...>:
>
> This is a deadlock situation for most developers and also some Core  
> developers. This topic has already been discussed many years ago without  
> any improvement.
>
> - Franz

... which doesn't mean that it can't be improve ...

@all core devs: Keep up the good work!

Cheers
Phil


--
Opera - the fastest newsreader
(I used Thunderbird and Evolution before)
_______________________________________________
TYPO3-dev mailing list
TYPO3-dev@...
http://lists.netfielders.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/typo3-dev

[ben van 't ende [netcreators]-2]

Hi Steffen,

Your concerns are on the monitor. We will have some talks about this in the
Steering Committee. Especially the release cycle is one. I am in favor of an
Ubuntu kind of release cycle.

gRTz

ben



Steffen Gebert wrote:

> Hi Francois,
>
> thans for your answer!
>
>> What would really improve the situation would be if we released versions
>> more often. If you knew that you just had to wait 6 months for new
>> features, it would be less of a heartbreak than a 18 months wait. We
>> dearly wanted to release 4.3 much earlier, but it didn't happen for a
>> whole lot of reasons. Manpower, again, is one of them.
> Yes, I really think shorter release cycles would improve TYPO3 (and it's
> developement) a lot!
>
>>> Nevertheless I have the same feelings about factions of core
>>> developers (kind of "ignoring" other factions or often only chalking
>>> up missing documentation).
>>
>> I feel personnally addressed by that remark, as I have often sent
>> reminders about missing documentation. Maybe you feel that documentation
>> is not important. That's not my point of view. There are already many
>> things which are not documented at all or not properly. At least I try
>> to keep track of what new features get in and make sure these are
>> documented.
>
> Documentation is very important, of course! I was really happy to see
> your service documentation and immediately started implementing an own
> login service (checking weather a user has paid his setup fee after X
> months).
>
> What I had in mind during writing these lines were postings, where
> answers only containing sth. like "there's no documentation with your
> patch, so -1" and postings from other people like "documentation will be
> added tomorrow", where nobody objected (and I have a feeling to see
> tendencies).
>
> So nothing against documentation - IMHO a docu has to be submitted with
> patches (which need docu)!
>
> Steffen

--
open source
open minds
open people

www.netcreators.com -  www.TYPO3.nl

TYPO3 gemeenten:
www.ede.nl
www.houten.nl
www.wijkbijduurstede.nl
_______________________________________________
TYPO3-dev mailing list
TYPO3-dev@...
http://lists.netfielders.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/typo3-dev

[Jigal van Hemert-3]

Hi Ben,

> Your concerns are on the monitor. We will have some talks about this in
> the
> Steering Committee. Especially the release cycle is one. I am in favor of
> an
> Ubuntu kind of release cycle.

It's not only the release cycle.

How can one explain the passionate posting of "REMINDER #7" (weekly
reminders) on the core list?

On various places people are encouraged to post patches on the core list.
After downloading the versions in SVN, carefully fixing trunk and
appropriate branches, generating patches, copying posts and taking the
courage to actually submit a patch you are welcomed with
- comments telling you that the solution is wrong (okay it was an ugly
solution to an even uglier problem)
- one question regarding the relation to another bug
- silence
- silence

I know the core team is very busy, they are volunteers, etc. but if others
are willing to lend a hand it would also be the responsibility of core
team members to guide, help and encourage these other volunteers. Or is
this a crazy idea? ... "Inspiring people to share" ...

Maybe there needs to be a paid person to pick up some pieces which are
left alone by volunteers? The old issues nobody cares about, the patches
that nobody wants to consider, etc.

I'm only thinking out loud and maybe I'm not the right person to say this,
but as some others have noticed too that the situation needs some
improvement...

Regards,
--
Jigal van Hemert.

_______________________________________________
TYPO3-dev mailing list
TYPO3-dev@...
http://lists.netfielders.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/typo3-dev

[Dmitry Dulepov]

Hi!

Steffen Ritter wrote:
> There are mighty of patches which are worthy and big improovements on
> TYPO3. Many of them just miss one core review. Others are even not
> commented by any core-dev...

These issues did not just appear, they are there for ages. I also talk about them for 2 years now but with no effect (well except annoying everyone). Basically this made me stop actively working on a core since the beginning of the year. There is no point sending patches if no one reviews them.

> I know that we are all under a lot of work, some people might be on
> holidays and I know that - for many of us - core work is freetime.

It is "free time" for the v4 team only.

I tried to push a "paid development" idea to anyone whom I could reach at t3dd. The answer from all decision making people is like "we do not want to pay for development" (I add: "...except to v5 for the last 3 years!"). The result is visible to everyone.

We also need a real testing team because relying on 1 or 2 review in a such complex system is completely  irresponsible idea, especially given a huge increase in a number of contributions. But no one listens!!! Everyone just says: "We are cool, TYPO3 is cool, all cool, T3A is cool, we will get a cool v5 soon, all is cool..." but nothing is cool for more than a year already.

I kinda tired to fight for a proper development in TYPO3. I have no idea what T3A is thinking or doing but it does not seem like they care. There is no big plan, There is no vision. There is no real steering. There is no big view on architecture, etc. After Kasper left TYPO3 moves randomly here and there. Bad for the product...

Quality issues are also a problem. Every latest release after 4.2.3 was unclean and had major quality issues.

TYPO3 needs changes and proper management if this product wants to survive!

--
Dmitry Dulepov
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/dmitryd
Twitter: http://twitter.com/dmitryd
Skype: liels_bugs
_______________________________________________
TYPO3-dev mailing list
TYPO3-dev@...
http://lists.netfielders.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/typo3-dev

[Martin Kutschker-7]

Dmitry Dulepov schrieb:
>
> We also need a real testing team because relying on 1 or 2 review in a such complex system is completely  irresponsible idea, especially given a huge increase in a number of contributions.

Of course it is. But the low number of reviews was explicitly chosen to
speed up development. Especially those guys who want their precious
patches in would love to drop the number even down to zero.


> Everyone just says: "We are cool, TYPO3 is cool, all cool, T3A is cool, we will get a cool v5 soon, all is cool..." but nothing is cool for more than a year already.

My attitude towards v5 is relaxed now. It's there when it's done - in a
couple of years from now :) I don't mind. What bothers me OTOH is that
the "bridging attittude" goes to far IMHO. Any new feature has to be MVC
and DDD even if it makes no sense at all in v4 context.

Think of the meta data (ontology) discussion. Instead of thinking about
how v4 could get some support for this it was all about how ExtBase
could add it to its domain objects. Hmpf.

> Quality issues are also a problem. Every latest release after 4.2.3 was unclean and had major quality issues.
>
> TYPO3 needs changes and proper management if this product wants to survive!

a) proper QA
b) proper stance towards major OS and UA *

Masi

* I use FF myself, but T3 *HAS* to be tested on IE!!!!!!
_______________________________________________
TYPO3-dev mailing list
TYPO3-dev@...
http://lists.netfielders.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/typo3-dev

[Xavier Perseguers]

Hi Masi,

> My attitude towards v5 is relaxed now. It's there when it's done - in a
> couple of years from now :) I don't mind. What bothers me OTOH is that
> the "bridging attittude" goes too far IMHO. Any new feature has to be MVC
> and DDD even if it makes no sense at all in v4 context.

Problem is simply that there is no playground for those really
interesting concepts. FLOW3 could be used but there is nothing "outside"
as v5 does not exist even as alpha. Thank to Extbase, we can use those
concepts in v4.

Now I see it quite clear that the "bridging attitude" will grow more and
more if v5 does not start to exist. And I understand your concerns about
going too far. For me the "risk" is that 4.5 (according to todays
tendency to have huge release cycles) become kind of v5 as concepts are
backported to v4. Again, the problem is that FLOW3 (and the rest)
without some real "support" (v5 is the targeted support) stay only
pretty ideas "on paper".

I know that they want to provide a great framework, great ideas, new
paradigms and the rest but during the elapsed time, people want to use
these stuff and although all those great stuff could be used "outside"
for "other projects", their main use, their target is and should remain v5.

As long as v5 team does not start really to work on v5 and give quickly
some real results regarding v5 itself and not the underlying framework,
component, ... then the bridging attitude will grow. At least, it's how
I see it and I understand it as I'm the first wanting to benefit from
what was done "for" v5.

--
Xavier Perseguers
MVC ExtJS Leader

http://forge.typo3.org/projects/show/extension-mvc_extjs
_______________________________________________
TYPO3-dev mailing list
TYPO3-dev@...
http://lists.netfielders.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/typo3-dev

[Martin Kutschker-7]

Xavier Perseguers schrieb:

> Hi Masi,
>
>> My attitude towards v5 is relaxed now. It's there when it's done - in a
>> couple of years from now :) I don't mind. What bothers me OTOH is that
>> the "bridging attittude" goes too far IMHO. Any new feature has to be MVC
>> and DDD even if it makes no sense at all in v4 context.
>
> Problem is simply that there is no playground for those really
> interesting concepts. FLOW3 could be used but there is nothing "outside"
> as v5 does not exist even as alpha. Thank to Extbase, we can use those
> concepts in v4.

I have nothing against ExtBase as such. But IMHO it shouldn't be the
center for new v4 features. OTOH I welcome "backports" of FLOW3 features
 within t3lib or tslib, eg FLUID or perhaps a new mail-generating and
mail-sending system etc.

> I know that they want to provide a great framework, great ideas, new
> paradigms and the rest but during the elapsed time, people want to use
> these stuff and although all those great stuff could be used "outside"
> for "other projects", their main use, their target is and should remain v5.

My stance is that a fully-fledged CMS is much too large as a target to
be a testbed for a new framework. Better start with smaller projects:

* a standalone forum (like BB forum)
* a blog (not only a sample package)
* wiki (a slightly bigger target)
* a small-scale bug/issue tracker

If you add features like SVN-viewing and projects to the above features
you'll get trac/redmine :)

Or add some plugin mechanism together with a mini-CMS and you'll get a
classic portal system.

Masi
_______________________________________________
TYPO3-dev mailing list
TYPO3-dev@...
http://lists.netfielders.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/typo3-dev

[Christian Opitz - Netzelf]

Hi list,

I've been watching the development of 4.3, extBase and FLUID for a while
now. Actually i have to write a bachelor thesis about developing an
extension for TYPO3 and i'd rather write about developing in FLOW3
architecture then the regular one but OTOH i want to use my extension in
4.x installations too.

At the moment i'm using the gimmefive component on which i like that
it's possible to include in an extension and users don't need to install
it before. But to be honest: the view rendering is a real gap compared
to other frameworks or FLUID. Due to that i wrote an own view renderer
that let's me use some logic in templates:

    public function assign($varName, $value) {
        $varName = str_replace(array('$',' ','/','\\'),'',$varName);
        $name = strval(trim($varName));
        if (strlen($name) > 0) {
            $this->vars[$name] = $value;
        } else {
            throw new Exception('Name for the assigned variable
"'.$varName.'" is of the wrong type or contains restricted chars.');
        }
    }

    private function renderPHP($templateFile) {
        extract($this->vars);
        ob_start();
        @include_once($templateFile);
        $templateContent = ob_get_contents();
        ob_end_clean();
        return $templateContent;
    }

I really want to use a template engine and FLUID seems growing to a good
one.

My major question is if it's possible to use extBase and/or FLUID in
minor versions then 4.3? Probably i could test this by checking them out
and trying it on my own but maybe s.o. already has a clear answer...

I'd apreciate if someone could give me a hint about which of the
concepts arround i should use for development of a stable but future
ready extension.

Thank you a lot

_______________________________________________
TYPO3-dev mailing list
TYPO3-dev@...
http://lists.netfielders.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/typo3-dev

[Xavier Perseguers]

Hi Christian,

Answering in a new message as you stole the "not amused" thread by
hitting the "Reply" button instead of creating a new message from scratch...

 > I really want to use a template engine and FLUID seems growing to a good
 > one.
 >
 > My major question is if it's possible to use extBase and/or FLUID in
 > minor versions then 4.3? Probably i could test this by checking them out
 > and trying it on my own but maybe s.o. already has a clear answer...
 >
 > I'd apreciate if someone could give me a hint about which of the
 > concepts arround i should use for development of a stable but future
 > ready extension.

I find 4.3 quite stable and you should simply consider using it for your
development instead of trying to backport stuff and concepts from 4.3 to
4.2.

Extbase + Fluid are now quite stable in 4.3-trunk.

HTH

--
Xavier Perseguers
MVC ExtJS Leader

http://forge.typo3.org/projects/show/extension-mvc_extjs
_______________________________________________
TYPO3-dev mailing list
TYPO3-dev@...
http://lists.netfielders.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/typo3-dev

[Georg Ringer-2]

Xavier Perseguers schrieb:
> I find 4.3 quite stable and you should simply consider using it for your
> development instead of trying to backport stuff and concepts from 4.3 to
> 4.2.

+1 for using 4.3 trunk as production system

Georg
_______________________________________________
TYPO3-dev mailing list
TYPO3-dev@...
http://lists.netfielders.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/typo3-dev

[Jigal van Hemert-3]

Hi!
> These issues did not just appear, they are there for ages. I also talk
(...)
> I tried to push a "paid development" idea to anyone whom I could reach at
(...)
> We also need a real testing team because relying on 1 or 2 review in a
(...)
> After Kasper left TYPO3 moves randomly here
> and there. Bad for the product...
>
> Quality issues are also a problem. Every latest release after 4.2.3 was
> unclean and had major quality issues.
>
> TYPO3 needs changes and proper management if this product wants to
> survive!

+1

And people still question the advantage of a kingdom over anarchy/republic?

King Dmitry really sounds nice, doesn't it? ;-)
(Nothing negative meant by this!)

Regards,
--
Jigal van Hemert.

_______________________________________________
TYPO3-dev mailing list
TYPO3-dev@...
http://lists.netfielders.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/typo3-dev

[Jigal van Hemert-3]

> Georg Ringer wrote:
> +1 for using 4.3 trunk as production system

Maybe I missed something? Using RC1 in a production environment is
questionable to say the least, but I have only seen 4.3alpha3 (yes, alpha)
as latest version. Did I miss a couple of betas and RCs? Testing,
bugfixing, ...

Or is trunk just "cool"? ;-)

Regards,
--
Jigal van Hemert.

_______________________________________________
TYPO3-dev mailing list
TYPO3-dev@...
http://lists.netfielders.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/typo3-dev

[Steffen Kamper-3]

Hi,

Jigal van Hemert schrieb:

>> Georg Ringer wrote:
>> +1 for using 4.3 trunk as production system
>
> Maybe I missed something? Using RC1 in a production environment is
> questionable to say the least, but I have only seen 4.3alpha3 (yes, alpha)
> as latest version. Did I miss a couple of betas and RCs? Testing,
> bugfixing, ...
>
> Or is trunk just "cool"? ;-)
>

using svn or alpha/beta releases is always own risk, you should know
what you do and you should update frequently.

I use svn also on some sites, but will use 4.3 final at the end.

vg Steffen
_______________________________________________
TYPO3-dev mailing list
TYPO3-dev@...
http://lists.netfielders.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/typo3-dev

[Xavier Perseguers]

Jigal van Hemert wrote:
>> Georg Ringer wrote:
>> +1 for using 4.3 trunk as production system
>
> Maybe I missed something? Using RC1 in a production environment is
> questionable to say the least, but I have only seen 4.3alpha3 (yes, alpha)
> as latest version. Did I miss a couple of betas and RCs? Testing,
> bugfixing, ...
>
> Or is trunk just "cool"? ;-)

alpha3 is completely outdated. beta (or beta1?) will be out "shortly"
but if you _develop_ for 4.3 you should definitively (for the moment)
work on trunk.

And yes... trunk is really "cool" :D

--
Xavier Perseguers
MVC ExtJS Leader

http://forge.typo3.org/projects/show/extension-mvc_extjs
_______________________________________________
TYPO3-dev mailing list
TYPO3-dev@...
http://lists.netfielders.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/typo3-dev

[Steffen Ritter-2]

Jigal van Hemert schrieb:
> Or is trunk just "cool"? ;-)

Well... For sure it's some kind of risky. But at all, "the standard
features" have less bugs then 4.2.8, it's easier to optimize, the
standard features are stable... if a page worked for 4.2.8 it should
with 4.3... It's a basic thing that "old features" have to be supported...
Relying completely on new features, or having a site, crashing for some
minutes will costs million of euros, it's to risky... For some standard
page having 10-100 visitors a day, without selling much, and you began
to develop on alpha3, and the site may be released but 4.3 is not
finished yet... no big deal No better testing than live possible ^^
Just change config_default.php, remove -dev and all is fine...
You should not update from svn every five minutes ^^

So far, my experience about using trunk on a live page.

regards

Steffen
_______________________________________________
TYPO3-dev mailing list
TYPO3-dev@...
http://lists.netfielders.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/typo3-dev