parallel processing panel at ICMC

[Victor Lazzarini]

I was there and saw the presentation, which was very interesting. The guys
at
GRAME are the ones to ask if we have questions about these matters, because
they seem to have good experience with these things.

However, I'll say this in relation to the parallelism they were
implementing.
I think it was too fine-grained. It would be the equivalent to doing it at
the opcode level or even sometimes at the processing loop level.

Victor


----- Original Message -----
From: "Felipe Sateler" <fsateler@...>
To: "Developer discussions" <csound-devel@...>
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 5:22 AM
Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] parallel processing panel at ICMC


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[Michael Gogins-2]

I would only assume that the Faust level of parallelization is too
fine-grained if experiments demonstrated that coarser grained
parallelization of the same algorithms run faster.

At this point, I myself have no idea what is really the optimal level
of graining for Csound, except that Intel's Threading Building Blocks
documentation says a task should have "tens of thousands of machine
instructions." I am guessing that is a small-size Csound instrument,
or a large Csound opcode, at 15-20 ksmps (optimal in my experience for
real-time performance) or so. Keep in mind, doing
multiply-accumulate-add in a non-unrolled loop for a stereo sample
frame of 20 ksmps  (e.g. the outs opcode) should be, in itself, around
100 machine instructions.

Does John ffitch's "costing" document provide better estimates of granularity?

However, it may well be that the level of granularity best for OpenMP
is smaller than the level of granularity best for TBB. Certainly, the
OpenMP pragmas are designed for the loop level of granularity. Of
course such OpenMP loops could be inner loops, or they could be outer
loops.

At any rate, using OpenMP with Csound currently appears to be
meaningful at this time only with the Intel C Compiler on Linux. It
would be interesting to apply OpenMP pragmas to various loops in
Csound.

Preliminary tests could be performed by taking some STK style
instruments and writing plugin opcodes from them with and without
OpenMP parallelization, then making heavy use of these opcodes in a
test csd.

Or by simply using Faust to generate such opcodes.

In fact, rather than parallelize all existing opcodes in Csound, we
might select a number of widely used opcodes (enough to rewrite some
popular instrument definitions) and write new versions of them  (par-
or p- opcodes) using Faust and OpenMP.

We might also want to parallelize the kperf loop as we already have
done, but with thread safety in those parts of the Csound API that are
used by opcodes.

But really, these two roads to parallelizing Csound are logically
independent. We could do one, or the other, or both. The advantage of
parallelizing opcodes is that it requires no changes to the Csound
"engine." The avantage of parallelizing kperf is that it provides
across-the-board performance gains that we already know are quite
real.

Doing both would, of course, put Csound at the head of the class,
performance-wise.

My next computer will certainly be a high-performance Linux or maybe
Apple machine with at least 4 cores.

Regards,
Mike

On 5/28/09, victor <Victor.Lazzarini@...> wrote:

> I was there and saw the presentation, which was very interesting. The guys
> at
> GRAME are the ones to ask if we have questions about these matters, because
> they seem to have good experience with these things.
>
> However, I'll say this in relation to the parallelism they were
> implementing.
> I think it was too fine-grained. It would be the equivalent to doing it at
> the opcode level or even sometimes at the processing loop level.
>
> Victor
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Felipe Sateler" <fsateler@...>
> To: "Developer discussions" <csound-devel@...>
> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 5:22 AM
> Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] parallel processing panel at ICMC
>
>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Register Now for Creativity and Technology (CaT), June 3rd, NYC. CaT
>> is a gathering of tech-side developers & brand creativity professionals.
>> Meet
>> the minds behind Google Creative Lab, Visual Complexity, Processing, &
>> iPhoneDevCamp as they present alongside digital heavyweights like
>> Barbarian
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>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Csound-devel@...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>>
>
>
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--
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Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com

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[Victor Lazzarini]

Not really, some of their results demonstrated that even some
typically parallel algorithms were slower in parallel than single-thread
implementations, which I can only attribute to grain size.

Victor
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Gogins" <michael.gogins@...>
To: "Developer discussions" <csound-devel@...>
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 1:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] parallel processing panel at ICMC


>I would only assume that the Faust level of parallelization is too
> fine-grained if experiments demonstrated that coarser grained
> parallelization of the same algorithms run faster.


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[Michael Gogins-2]

Point taken.

BTW, it now seems that Intel Threading Building Blocks (TBB) is
supported to some extent on MinGW, so it can be considered available
for Csound, at least on Windows and Linux. So TBB would be appropriate
for parallelizing the kperf loop, and for supplying thread-safe
collections and function locks.

TBB can do function locks both with pthreads and with spinlocks.

Regards,
Mike

On 5/28/09, victor <Victor.Lazzarini@...> wrote:

> Not really, some of their results demonstrated that even some
> typically parallel algorithms were slower in parallel than single-thread
> implementations, which I can only attribute to grain size.
>
> Victor
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Gogins" <michael.gogins@...>
> To: "Developer discussions" <csound-devel@...>
> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 1:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] parallel processing panel at ICMC
>
>
>>I would only assume that the Faust level of parallelization is too
>> fine-grained if experiments demonstrated that coarser grained
>> parallelization of the same algorithms run faster.
>
>
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[Victor Lazzarini]

Is it better than OpenMP or a pthread approach?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Gogins" <michael.gogins@...>
To: "Developer discussions" <csound-devel@...>
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 3:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] parallel processing panel at ICMC

> Point taken.
>
> BTW, it now seems that Intel Threading Building Blocks (TBB) is
> supported to some extent on MinGW, so it can be considered available
> for Csound, at least on Windows and Linux. So TBB would be appropriate
> for parallelizing the kperf loop, and for supplying thread-safe
> collections and function locks.
>
> TBB can do function locks both with pthreads and with spinlocks.
>
> Regards,
> Mike
>
> On 5/28/09, victor <Victor.Lazzarini@...> wrote:
>> Not really, some of their results demonstrated that even some
>> typically parallel algorithms were slower in parallel than single-thread
>> implementations, which I can only attribute to grain size.
>>
>> Victor
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Michael Gogins" <michael.gogins@...>
>> To: "Developer discussions" <csound-devel@...>
>> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 1:40 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] parallel processing panel at ICMC
>>
>>
>>>I would only assume that the Faust level of parallelization is too
>>> fine-grained if experiments demonstrated that coarser grained
>>> parallelization of the same algorithms run faster.
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Register Now for Creativity and Technology (CaT), June 3rd, NYC. CaT
>> is a gathering of tech-side developers & brand creativity professionals.
>> Meet
>> the minds behind Google Creative Lab, Visual Complexity, Processing, &
>> iPhoneDevCamp as they present alongside digital heavyweights like
>> Barbarian
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>> _______________________________________________
>> Csound-devel mailing list
>> Csound-devel@...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>>
>
>
> --
> Michael Gogins
> Irreducible Productions
> http://www.michael-gogins.com
> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>
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[Michael Gogins-2]

It is different, not better. In theory, I would prefer OpenMP because
it becomes part of the language, part of the compiler, and the loop
pragmas can of course be used for higher level loops as well as for
inner loops.

However, TBB offers thread-safe collections and global synchronization
primitives and functions. I feel that this stuff is very valuable. It
is hard to get right if you have to do it yourself. So in practice, I
might end up preferring TBB. But I do not have experience with both so
cannot yet say.

Regarding pthreads, TBB uses and wraps pthreads or Windows threads.

Regards,
Mike

On 5/28/09, victor <Victor.Lazzarini@...> wrote:

> Is it better than OpenMP or a pthread approach?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Gogins" <michael.gogins@...>
> To: "Developer discussions" <csound-devel@...>
> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 3:55 PM
> Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] parallel processing panel at ICMC
>
>
>> Point taken.
>>
>> BTW, it now seems that Intel Threading Building Blocks (TBB) is
>> supported to some extent on MinGW, so it can be considered available
>> for Csound, at least on Windows and Linux. So TBB would be appropriate
>> for parallelizing the kperf loop, and for supplying thread-safe
>> collections and function locks.
>>
>> TBB can do function locks both with pthreads and with spinlocks.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Mike
>>
>> On 5/28/09, victor <Victor.Lazzarini@...> wrote:
>>> Not really, some of their results demonstrated that even some
>>> typically parallel algorithms were slower in parallel than single-thread
>>> implementations, which I can only attribute to grain size.
>>>
>>> Victor
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Michael Gogins" <michael.gogins@...>
>>> To: "Developer discussions" <csound-devel@...>
>>> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 1:40 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] parallel processing panel at ICMC
>>>
>>>
>>>>I would only assume that the Faust level of parallelization is too
>>>> fine-grained if experiments demonstrated that coarser grained
>>>> parallelization of the same algorithms run faster.
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Register Now for Creativity and Technology (CaT), June 3rd, NYC. CaT
>>> is a gathering of tech-side developers & brand creativity professionals.
>>> Meet
>>> the minds behind Google Creative Lab, Visual Complexity, Processing, &
>>> iPhoneDevCamp as they present alongside digital heavyweights like
>>> Barbarian
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>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Csound-devel mailing list
>>> Csound-devel@...
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Michael Gogins
>> Irreducible Productions
>> http://www.michael-gogins.com
>> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>
>
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[Michael Gogins-2]

I should add, the main difference between OpenMP and TBB is that
OpenMP tries to sneak itself into the C++ language, but TBB assumes
you are writing in standard C++ and that you will parallelize your
work by writing classes that encapsulate logically independent tasks
and the data they require.

Quite frankly, in my considered judgment the best way to get Csound up
to speed (literally) is to rewrite it in C++, use the TBB collections
for tables and lists, parallelize the kperf loop and perhaps some
selected opcodes (oscillator banks etc.), and put spinlocks on all the
API calls that opcodes use. We would then be done and light years
ahead of other synthesizers -- especially on 4 or more cores. I
estimate this is a few man-months of work.

As I have suggested in the past, rewriting Csound in C++ is not so
hard; we would turn the CSOUND struct into a class and the existing
low-level API calls and "engine" functions that take a CSOUND pointer
into member functions of this class, then replace existing arrays and
lists with TBB collections.

Later, once OpenMP is supported by all compilers, it would make sense
to use OpenMP to parallelize important opcodes.

People ended up mostly following my advice on the Csound API... though
it took long enough.

Please, listen to what I am saying. I don't like to toot my own horn,
but I also hate to see wasted effort. This advice is pure gold.

It would work, it would make Csound parallel, it would not be too much
work, and it would have a side effect of making Csound actually
simpler and easier to maintain.

I don't know if my advice would work with the parser code, or with
John ffitch's prototype for parallelizing Csound.

Regards,
Mike


On 5/28/09, Michael Gogins <michael.gogins@...> wrote:

> It is different, not better. In theory, I would prefer OpenMP because
> it becomes part of the language, part of the compiler, and the loop
> pragmas can of course be used for higher level loops as well as for
> inner loops.
>
> However, TBB offers thread-safe collections and global synchronization
> primitives and functions. I feel that this stuff is very valuable. It
> is hard to get right if you have to do it yourself. So in practice, I
> might end up preferring TBB. But I do not have experience with both so
> cannot yet say.
>
> Regarding pthreads, TBB uses and wraps pthreads or Windows threads.
>
> Regards,
> Mike
>
> On 5/28/09, victor <Victor.Lazzarini@...> wrote:
>> Is it better than OpenMP or a pthread approach?
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Michael Gogins" <michael.gogins@...>
>> To: "Developer discussions" <csound-devel@...>
>> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 3:55 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] parallel processing panel at ICMC
>>
>>
>>> Point taken.
>>>
>>> BTW, it now seems that Intel Threading Building Blocks (TBB) is
>>> supported to some extent on MinGW, so it can be considered available
>>> for Csound, at least on Windows and Linux. So TBB would be appropriate
>>> for parallelizing the kperf loop, and for supplying thread-safe
>>> collections and function locks.
>>>
>>> TBB can do function locks both with pthreads and with spinlocks.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> On 5/28/09, victor <Victor.Lazzarini@...> wrote:
>>>> Not really, some of their results demonstrated that even some
>>>> typically parallel algorithms were slower in parallel than
>>>> single-thread
>>>> implementations, which I can only attribute to grain size.
>>>>
>>>> Victor
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Michael Gogins" <michael.gogins@...>
>>>> To: "Developer discussions" <csound-devel@...>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 1:40 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] parallel processing panel at ICMC
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I would only assume that the Faust level of parallelization is too
>>>>> fine-grained if experiments demonstrated that coarser grained
>>>>> parallelization of the same algorithms run faster.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Register Now for Creativity and Technology (CaT), June 3rd, NYC. CaT
>>>> is a gathering of tech-side developers & brand creativity
>>>> professionals.
>>>> Meet
>>>> the minds behind Google Creative Lab, Visual Complexity, Processing, &
>>>> iPhoneDevCamp as they present alongside digital heavyweights like
>>>> Barbarian
>>>> Group, R/GA, & Big Spaceship. http://p.sf.net/sfu/creativitycat-com
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Csound-devel mailing list
>>>> Csound-devel@...
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Michael Gogins
>>> Irreducible Productions
>>> http://www.michael-gogins.com
>>> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
>>
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>
>
> --
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> http://www.michael-gogins.com
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>

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[Jonatan Liljedahl]

...
> Or by simply using Faust to generate such opcodes.

Does Faust have a "csound plugin" output? That would be wonderful and a
great reason for me to learn faust. :)

--
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[Michael Gogins-2]

It does, for float csound.

Regards,
Mike

On 5/28/09, Jonatan Liljedahl <lijon@...> wrote:

> ...
>> Or by simply using Faust to generate such opcodes.
>
> Does Faust have a "csound plugin" output? That would be wonderful and a
> great reason for me to learn faust. :)
>
> --
> /Jonatan         [ http://kymatica.com ]
>
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[Felipe Sateler]

El viernes 29 de mayo, Michael Gogins escribió:
> Point taken.
>
> BTW, it now seems that Intel Threading Building Blocks (TBB) is
> supported to some extent on MinGW, so it can be considered available
> for Csound, at least on Windows and Linux. So TBB would be appropriate
> for parallelizing the kperf loop, and for supplying thread-safe
> collections and function locks.
>
> TBB can do function locks both with pthreads and with spinlocks.

But TBB is not open source.

Saludos,
Felipe Sateler


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[Victor Lazzarini]

I am not in favour of moving the code to C++.

Victor
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Gogins" <michael.gogins@...>
To: "Developer discussions" <csound-devel@...>
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 4:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] parallel processing panel at ICMC

>I should add, the main difference between OpenMP and TBB is that
> OpenMP tries to sneak itself into the C++ language, but TBB assumes
> you are writing in standard C++ and that you will parallelize your
> work by writing classes that encapsulate logically independent tasks
> and the data they require.
>
> Quite frankly, in my considered judgment the best way to get Csound up
> to speed (literally) is to rewrite it in C++, use the TBB collections
> for tables and lists, parallelize the kperf loop and perhaps some
> selected opcodes (oscillator banks etc.), and put spinlocks on all the
> API calls that opcodes use. We would then be done and light years
> ahead of other synthesizers -- especially on 4 or more cores. I
> estimate this is a few man-months of work.
>
> As I have suggested in the past, rewriting Csound in C++ is not so
> hard; we would turn the CSOUND struct into a class and the existing
> low-level API calls and "engine" functions that take a CSOUND pointer
> into member functions of this class, then replace existing arrays and
> lists with TBB collections.
>
> Later, once OpenMP is supported by all compilers, it would make sense
> to use OpenMP to parallelize important opcodes.
>
> People ended up mostly following my advice on the Csound API... though
> it took long enough.
>
> Please, listen to what I am saying. I don't like to toot my own horn,
> but I also hate to see wasted effort. This advice is pure gold.
>
> It would work, it would make Csound parallel, it would not be too much
> work, and it would have a side effect of making Csound actually
> simpler and easier to maintain.
>
> I don't know if my advice would work with the parser code, or with
> John ffitch's prototype for parallelizing Csound.
>
> Regards,
> Mike
>
>
> On 5/28/09, Michael Gogins <michael.gogins@...> wrote:
>> It is different, not better. In theory, I would prefer OpenMP because
>> it becomes part of the language, part of the compiler, and the loop
>> pragmas can of course be used for higher level loops as well as for
>> inner loops.
>>
>> However, TBB offers thread-safe collections and global synchronization
>> primitives and functions. I feel that this stuff is very valuable. It
>> is hard to get right if you have to do it yourself. So in practice, I
>> might end up preferring TBB. But I do not have experience with both so
>> cannot yet say.
>>
>> Regarding pthreads, TBB uses and wraps pthreads or Windows threads.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Mike
>>
>> On 5/28/09, victor <Victor.Lazzarini@...> wrote:
>>> Is it better than OpenMP or a pthread approach?
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Michael Gogins" <michael.gogins@...>
>>> To: "Developer discussions" <csound-devel@...>
>>> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 3:55 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] parallel processing panel at ICMC
>>>
>>>
>>>> Point taken.
>>>>
>>>> BTW, it now seems that Intel Threading Building Blocks (TBB) is
>>>> supported to some extent on MinGW, so it can be considered available
>>>> for Csound, at least on Windows and Linux. So TBB would be appropriate
>>>> for parallelizing the kperf loop, and for supplying thread-safe
>>>> collections and function locks.
>>>>
>>>> TBB can do function locks both with pthreads and with spinlocks.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>> On 5/28/09, victor <Victor.Lazzarini@...> wrote:
>>>>> Not really, some of their results demonstrated that even some
>>>>> typically parallel algorithms were slower in parallel than
>>>>> single-thread
>>>>> implementations, which I can only attribute to grain size.
>>>>>
>>>>> Victor
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Michael Gogins" <michael.gogins@...>
>>>>> To: "Developer discussions" <csound-devel@...>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 1:40 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] parallel processing panel at ICMC
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I would only assume that the Faust level of parallelization is too
>>>>>> fine-grained if experiments demonstrated that coarser grained
>>>>>> parallelization of the same algorithms run faster.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Register Now for Creativity and Technology (CaT), June 3rd, NYC. CaT
>>>>> is a gathering of tech-side developers & brand creativity
>>>>> professionals.
>>>>> Meet
>>>>> the minds behind Google Creative Lab, Visual Complexity, Processing, &
>>>>> iPhoneDevCamp as they present alongside digital heavyweights like
>>>>> Barbarian
>>>>> Group, R/GA, & Big Spaceship. http://p.sf.net/sfu/creativitycat-com
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Csound-devel mailing list
>>>>> Csound-devel@...
>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Michael Gogins
>>>> Irreducible Productions
>>>> http://www.michael-gogins.com
>>>> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Register Now for Creativity and Technology (CaT), June 3rd, NYC. CaT
>>>> is a gathering of tech-side developers & brand creativity
>>>> professionals.
>>>> Meet
>>>> the minds behind Google Creative Lab, Visual Complexity, Processing, &
>>>> iPhoneDevCamp as they present alongside digital heavyweights like
>>>> Barbarian
>>>> Group, R/GA, & Big Spaceship. http://p.sf.net/sfu/creativitycat-com
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Csound-devel mailing list
>>>> Csound-devel@...
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Register Now for Creativity and Technology (CaT), June 3rd, NYC. CaT
>>> is a gathering of tech-side developers & brand creativity professionals.
>>> Meet
>>> the minds behind Google Creative Lab, Visual Complexity, Processing, &
>>> iPhoneDevCamp as they present alongside digital heavyweights like
>>> Barbarian
>>> Group, R/GA, & Big Spaceship. http://p.sf.net/sfu/creativitycat-com
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Csound-devel mailing list
>>> Csound-devel@...
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Michael Gogins
>> Irreducible Productions
>> http://www.michael-gogins.com
>> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>>
>
>
> --
> Michael Gogins
> Irreducible Productions
> http://www.michael-gogins.com
> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> _______________________________________________
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel 

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[Victor Lazzarini]

yes, it's currently experimental and in CVS.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jonatan Liljedahl" <lijon@...>
To: "Developer discussions" <csound-devel@...>
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 4:28 PM
Subject: [Cs-dev] Faust and csound

> ...
>> Or by simply using Faust to generate such opcodes.
>
> Does Faust have a "csound plugin" output? That would be wonderful and a
> great reason for me to learn faust. :)
>
> --
> /Jonatan         [ http://kymatica.com ]
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Michael Gogins-2]

Why not? I do not advocate porting all of Csound to C++, certainly not
the working opcodes. I am talking about the "engine."

At any rate, even if we choose not to port the "engine" to C++, it
would still be possible to compile it with the C++ compiler, and use
the TBB where that makes sense.

Regards,
Mike

On 5/28/09, victor <Victor.Lazzarini@...> wrote:

> I am not in favour of moving the code to C++.
>
> Victor
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Gogins" <michael.gogins@...>
> To: "Developer discussions" <csound-devel@...>
> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 4:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] parallel processing panel at ICMC
>
>
>>I should add, the main difference between OpenMP and TBB is that
>> OpenMP tries to sneak itself into the C++ language, but TBB assumes
>> you are writing in standard C++ and that you will parallelize your
>> work by writing classes that encapsulate logically independent tasks
>> and the data they require.
>>
>> Quite frankly, in my considered judgment the best way to get Csound up
>> to speed (literally) is to rewrite it in C++, use the TBB collections
>> for tables and lists, parallelize the kperf loop and perhaps some
>> selected opcodes (oscillator banks etc.), and put spinlocks on all the
>> API calls that opcodes use. We would then be done and light years
>> ahead of other synthesizers -- especially on 4 or more cores. I
>> estimate this is a few man-months of work.
>>
>> As I have suggested in the past, rewriting Csound in C++ is not so
>> hard; we would turn the CSOUND struct into a class and the existing
>> low-level API calls and "engine" functions that take a CSOUND pointer
>> into member functions of this class, then replace existing arrays and
>> lists with TBB collections.
>>
>> Later, once OpenMP is supported by all compilers, it would make sense
>> to use OpenMP to parallelize important opcodes.
>>
>> People ended up mostly following my advice on the Csound API... though
>> it took long enough.
>>
>> Please, listen to what I am saying. I don't like to toot my own horn,
>> but I also hate to see wasted effort. This advice is pure gold.
>>
>> It would work, it would make Csound parallel, it would not be too much
>> work, and it would have a side effect of making Csound actually
>> simpler and easier to maintain.
>>
>> I don't know if my advice would work with the parser code, or with
>> John ffitch's prototype for parallelizing Csound.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Mike
>>
>>
>> On 5/28/09, Michael Gogins <michael.gogins@...> wrote:
>>> It is different, not better. In theory, I would prefer OpenMP because
>>> it becomes part of the language, part of the compiler, and the loop
>>> pragmas can of course be used for higher level loops as well as for
>>> inner loops.
>>>
>>> However, TBB offers thread-safe collections and global synchronization
>>> primitives and functions. I feel that this stuff is very valuable. It
>>> is hard to get right if you have to do it yourself. So in practice, I
>>> might end up preferring TBB. But I do not have experience with both so
>>> cannot yet say.
>>>
>>> Regarding pthreads, TBB uses and wraps pthreads or Windows threads.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> On 5/28/09, victor <Victor.Lazzarini@...> wrote:
>>>> Is it better than OpenMP or a pthread approach?
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Michael Gogins" <michael.gogins@...>
>>>> To: "Developer discussions" <csound-devel@...>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 3:55 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] parallel processing panel at ICMC
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Point taken.
>>>>>
>>>>> BTW, it now seems that Intel Threading Building Blocks (TBB) is
>>>>> supported to some extent on MinGW, so it can be considered available
>>>>> for Csound, at least on Windows and Linux. So TBB would be appropriate
>>>>> for parallelizing the kperf loop, and for supplying thread-safe
>>>>> collections and function locks.
>>>>>
>>>>> TBB can do function locks both with pthreads and with spinlocks.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>> On 5/28/09, victor <Victor.Lazzarini@...> wrote:
>>>>>> Not really, some of their results demonstrated that even some
>>>>>> typically parallel algorithms were slower in parallel than
>>>>>> single-thread
>>>>>> implementations, which I can only attribute to grain size.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Victor
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Michael Gogins" <michael.gogins@...>
>>>>>> To: "Developer discussions" <csound-devel@...>
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 1:40 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] parallel processing panel at ICMC
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I would only assume that the Faust level of parallelization is too
>>>>>>> fine-grained if experiments demonstrated that coarser grained
>>>>>>> parallelization of the same algorithms run faster.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> Register Now for Creativity and Technology (CaT), June 3rd, NYC. CaT
>>>>>> is a gathering of tech-side developers & brand creativity
>>>>>> professionals.
>>>>>> Meet
>>>>>> the minds behind Google Creative Lab, Visual Complexity, Processing, &
>>>>>> iPhoneDevCamp as they present alongside digital heavyweights like
>>>>>> Barbarian
>>>>>> Group, R/GA, & Big Spaceship. http://p.sf.net/sfu/creativitycat-com
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Csound-devel mailing list
>>>>>> Csound-devel@...
>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Michael Gogins
>>>>> Irreducible Productions
>>>>> http://www.michael-gogins.com
>>>>> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Register Now for Creativity and Technology (CaT), June 3rd, NYC. CaT
>>>>> is a gathering of tech-side developers & brand creativity
>>>>> professionals.
>>>>> Meet
>>>>> the minds behind Google Creative Lab, Visual Complexity, Processing, &
>>>>> iPhoneDevCamp as they present alongside digital heavyweights like
>>>>> Barbarian
>>>>> Group, R/GA, & Big Spaceship. http://p.sf.net/sfu/creativitycat-com
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Csound-devel mailing list
>>>>> Csound-devel@...
>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Register Now for Creativity and Technology (CaT), June 3rd, NYC. CaT
>>>> is a gathering of tech-side developers & brand creativity professionals.
>>>> Meet
>>>> the minds behind Google Creative Lab, Visual Complexity, Processing, &
>>>> iPhoneDevCamp as they present alongside digital heavyweights like
>>>> Barbarian
>>>> Group, R/GA, & Big Spaceship. http://p.sf.net/sfu/creativitycat-com
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Csound-devel mailing list
>>>> Csound-devel@...
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Michael Gogins
>>> Irreducible Productions
>>> http://www.michael-gogins.com
>>> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Michael Gogins
>> Irreducible Productions
>> http://www.michael-gogins.com
>> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Register Now for Creativity and Technology (CaT), June 3rd, NYC. CaT
>> is a gathering of tech-side developers & brand creativity professionals.
>> Meet
>> the minds behind Google Creative Lab, Visual Complexity, Processing, &
>> iPhoneDevCamp as they present alongside digital heavyweights like
>> Barbarian
>> Group, R/GA, & Big Spaceship. http://p.sf.net/sfu/creativitycat-com
>> _______________________________________________
>> Csound-devel mailing list
>> Csound-devel@...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> iPhoneDevCamp as they present alongside digital heavyweights like Barbarian
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> _______________________________________________
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>

--
Michael Gogins
Irreducible Productions
http://www.michael-gogins.com
Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com

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[Michael Gogins-2]

The TBB is GPLv2 with the "runtime exception:"

      As a special exception, you may use this file as part of a free software
      library without restriction.  Specifically, if other files instantiate
      templates or use macros or inline functions from this file, or you compile
      this file and link it with other files to produce an executable, this
      file does not by itself cause the resulting executable to be covered by
      the GNU General Public License.  This exception does not however
      invalidate any other reasons why the executable file might be covered by
      the GNU General Public License.

As far as I can tell, this lets us use the TBB in Csound. The TBB
itself is the "free software library" that can be used without
restruction, and the Csound shared libraries and programs are the
executables thus produced, which do not thereby fall under the GPL.

Regards,
Mike

On 5/28/09, Felipe Sateler <fsateler@...> wrote:

> El viernes 29 de mayo, Michael Gogins escribió:
>> Point taken.
>>
>> BTW, it now seems that Intel Threading Building Blocks (TBB) is
>> supported to some extent on MinGW, so it can be considered available
>> for Csound, at least on Windows and Linux. So TBB would be appropriate
>> for parallelizing the kperf loop, and for supplying thread-safe
>> collections and function locks.
>>
>> TBB can do function locks both with pthreads and with spinlocks.
>
> But TBB is not open source.
>
> Saludos,
> Felipe Sateler
>

--
Michael Gogins
Irreducible Productions
http://www.michael-gogins.com
Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com

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[Jonatan Liljedahl]

Cool, where is it? I can't find it with the other architecture files in
the faust tarball.

Michael Gogins wrote:

> It does, for float csound.
>
> Regards,
> Mike
>
> On 5/28/09, Jonatan Liljedahl <lijon@...> wrote:
>> ...
>>> Or by simply using Faust to generate such opcodes.
>> Does Faust have a "csound plugin" output? That would be wonderful and a
>> great reason for me to learn faust. :)
>>
>> --
>> /Jonatan         [ http://kymatica.com ]
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Register Now for Creativity and Technology (CaT), June 3rd, NYC. CaT
>> is a gathering of tech-side developers & brand creativity professionals.
>> Meet
>> the minds behind Google Creative Lab, Visual Complexity, Processing, &
>> iPhoneDevCamp as they present alongside digital heavyweights like Barbarian
>> Group, R/GA, & Big Spaceship. http://p.sf.net/sfu/creativitycat-com
>> _______________________________________________
>> Csound-devel mailing list
>> Csound-devel@...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>>
>
>

--
/Jonatan         [ http://kymatica.com ]

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[Victor Lazzarini]

CVS only. Ask Yann.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jonatan Liljedahl" <lijon@...>
To: "Developer discussions" <csound-devel@...>
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 7:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] Faust and csound

> Cool, where is it? I can't find it with the other architecture files in
> the faust tarball.
>
> Michael Gogins wrote:
>> It does, for float csound.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Mike
>>
>> On 5/28/09, Jonatan Liljedahl <lijon@...> wrote:
>>> ...
>>>> Or by simply using Faust to generate such opcodes.
>>> Does Faust have a "csound plugin" output? That would be wonderful and a
>>> great reason for me to learn faust. :)
>>>
>>> --
>>> /Jonatan         [ http://kymatica.com ]
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Register Now for Creativity and Technology (CaT), June 3rd, NYC. CaT
>>> is a gathering of tech-side developers & brand creativity professionals.
>>> Meet
>>> the minds behind Google Creative Lab, Visual Complexity, Processing, &
>>> iPhoneDevCamp as they present alongside digital heavyweights like
>>> Barbarian
>>> Group, R/GA, & Big Spaceship. http://p.sf.net/sfu/creativitycat-com
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Csound-devel mailing list
>>> Csound-devel@...
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> /Jonatan         [ http://kymatica.com ]
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Felipe Sateler]

Hmm, apparently I landed on another website, which cited a non-free license.

El viernes 29 de mayo, Michael Gogins escribió:

> The TBB is GPLv2 with the "runtime exception:"
>
>       As a special exception, you may use this file as part of a free
> software library without restriction.  Specifically, if other files
> instantiate templates or use macros or inline functions from this file, or
> you compile this file and link it with other files to produce an
> executable, this file does not by itself cause the resulting executable to
> be covered by the GNU General Public License.  This exception does not
> however invalidate any other reasons why the executable file might be
> covered by the GNU General Public License.
>
> As far as I can tell, this lets us use the TBB in Csound. The TBB
> itself is the "free software library" that can be used without
> restruction, and the Csound shared libraries and programs are the
> executables thus produced, which do not thereby fall under the GPL.
>
> Regards,
> Mike
>
> On 5/28/09, Felipe Sateler <fsateler@...> wrote:
> > El viernes 29 de mayo, Michael Gogins escribió:
> >> Point taken.
> >>
> >> BTW, it now seems that Intel Threading Building Blocks (TBB) is
> >> supported to some extent on MinGW, so it can be considered available
> >> for Csound, at least on Windows and Linux. So TBB would be appropriate
> >> for parallelizing the kperf loop, and for supplying thread-safe
> >> collections and function locks.
> >>
> >> TBB can do function locks both with pthreads and with spinlocks.
> >
> > But TBB is not open source.
> >
> > Saludos,
> > Felipe Sateler

Saludos,
Felipe Sateler


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[Michael Gogins-2]

Yes, TBB has a dual license. With the commercial license, you get support.
With the "non-commercial" license, you get a forum. The difference between
this and "open source" like Csound is that the using software must be
rigorously non-commercial. I take it that Csound falls into this category!

I think it is very good of Intel to do business this way, even though I
would prefer pure open source instead of this "non-commercial" stipulation.

Regards,
Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Felipe Sateler" <fsateler@...>
To: "Developer discussions" <csound-devel@...>
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 8:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] parallel processing panel at ICMC


> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Register Now for Creativity and Technology (CaT), June 3rd, NYC. CaT
> is a gathering of tech-side developers & brand creativity professionals.
> Meet
> the minds behind Google Creative Lab, Visual Complexity, Processing, &
> iPhoneDevCamp as they present alongside digital heavyweights like
> Barbarian
> Group, R/GA, & Big Spaceship. http://p.sf.net/sfu/creativitycat-com


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------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Register Now for Creativity and Technology (CaT), June 3rd, NYC. CaT
is a gathering of tech-side developers & brand creativity professionals. Meet
the minds behind Google Creative Lab, Visual Complexity, Processing, &
iPhoneDevCamp as they present alongside digital heavyweights like Barbarian
Group, R/GA, & Big Spaceship. http://p.sf.net/sfu/creativitycat-com 
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Csound-devel mailing list
Csound-devel@...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel