Nabble - pipmak-devel

Sound playback issue at >44.1kHz sample rate

2009-11-25T15:11:34Z

Hi Everyone,

I'm wondering if anyone has experienced sound playback distortion when sample rates greater than 44.1kHz are in the game engine? This seems to occur if the source files are at 48kHz for instance when converted to ogg, and also when the engine pitches sounds up.

For instance, a 44.1kHz ogg file placed on the knobs in the demo project building will distort/playback with digital artifacts when the knob is tied to the pitch variable of that sound.

This is only occurring on the Mac OS 10.5. I have not had the opportunity to check on Snow Leopard.

Thank you,
JC

Re: Proposed change to Pipmak's grabbing

2009-11-05T04:04:47Z

Aidan Gauland wrote:

> Urs has a good point. Perhaps, as Pipmak can, but won't always, be used as
> development tool, we should release two different versions: a developer build
> (for developers *using* Pipmak, not developers *of* Pipmak), and a user
> build. The only difference being that the developer build has features that
> would be useful only to developers, and the user build would have these
> stripped out at compile time.
>
> Some features that would only be useful to developers that I can think of off
> the top of my head:
>
> * Highlighting controls.
> * The table editor.
> * Control over the grabbing.
> * The Lua command-line.
> * Creating a new, empty project (this would not be necessary for a copy of
> Pipmak bundled with a game).

I have thought about this in the past, but dismissed the idea for
various reasons (mentioned here:
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.games.devel.pipmak.user/103). Mainly
because it seems an unnecessary complication to me.

As to the "control over grabbing" issue, I would still prefer to fix the
problem instead of making far-reaching decisions in an attempt to work
around it.

-Christian

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Re: Proposed change to Pipmak's grabbing

2009-11-04T12:52:24Z

Aidan Gauland wrote:
> I also have no idea where to begin with looking for this bug in SDL.

I would start by compiling SDL from source, running Pipmak (or a small
test application) in a debugger, and stepping into an SDL_WM_GrabInput
call to see what it does.

-Christian

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Re: Proposed change to Pipmak's grabbing

2009-11-02T17:04:24Z

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Hash: SHA1

Urs Holzer wrote:

> Christian Walther wrote:
>>> Or make it possible to force
>>> grabbing *off* permanently (but this probably would not improve
>>> anything).
>> That would make direct mouse mode unusable.
>
> This wouldn't be a problem when developing a game, would it? I think the
> only right solution to this problem is to implement different behaviours
> and an option that lets the user switch between them. As default we
> should use a behaviour that is most convinient to a player, a developer
> always can change the option.

Urs has a good point. Perhaps, as Pipmak can, but won't always, be used as
development tool, we should release two different versions: a developer build
(for developers *using* Pipmak, not developers *of* Pipmak), and a user
build. The only difference being that the developer build has features that
would be useful only to developers, and the user build would have these
stripped out at compile time.

Some features that would only be useful to developers that I can think of off
the top of my head:

* Highlighting controls.
* The table editor.
* Control over the grabbing.
* The Lua command-line.
* Creating a new, empty project (this would not be necessary for a copy of
Pipmak bundled with a game).

--Aidan
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Re: Proposed change to Pipmak's grabbing

2009-11-02T16:50:33Z

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Christian Walther wrote:

> Aidan Gauland wrote:
>> What I don't like is that Pipmak makes the mouse jump when the mouse moves
>> over and past the window.
>
> Then the proper course of action would be to fix this in SDL. Grabbing
> and ungrabbing should not make the mouse jump. I have never examined
> grabbing in the X11 backend of SDL, maybe it's easy to fix. Maybe it's
> even fixed already - I haven't followed SDL development for almost two
> years. I don't even know what the status of SDL 1.3 is, whether it has
> already supplanted 1.2 as the "stable" version.

SDL 1.3 has yet to succeed SDL 1.2, and the version in Debian stable is only
one behind the latest upstream version.

I also have no idea where to begin with looking for this bug in SDL.

>> ... someone else on the mailing lists (Urs, I think) said that he had
>> problems with Pipmak's edge-resistance on KDE's window manager
>
> Didn't we eliminate the edge resistance (r177)?

Yes we did. I was just pointing out that another X11-only grabbing-issue.

>> Maybe we need to, instead, look at the workaround to prevent the mouse from
>> becoming permanently grabbed. I think it was to generate a mouse-motion
>> event, which would be why the mouse jumps.
>
> Are you talking about any of revs 178, 179, 180, 195? I'm not sure if
> they have anything to do with the issue.

Yes, sorry. I was getting confused about what was changed.
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Re: Proposed change to Pipmak's grabbing

2009-11-01T06:14:20Z

Christian Walther wrote:
>> Or make it possible to force
>> grabbing *off* permanently (but this probably would not improve
>> anything).
>
> That would make direct mouse mode unusable.

This wouldn't be a problem when developing a game, would it? I think the
only right solution to this problem is to implement different behaviours
and an option that lets the user switch between them. As default we
should use a behaviour that is most convinient to a player, a developer
always can change the option.

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Re: Proposed change to Pipmak's grabbing

2009-11-01T01:47:07Z

Aidan Gauland wrote:
> What I don't like is that Pipmak makes the mouse jump when the mouse moves
> over and past the window.

Then the proper course of action would be to fix this in SDL. Grabbing
and ungrabbing should not make the mouse jump. I have never examined
grabbing in the X11 backend of SDL, maybe it's easy to fix. Maybe it's
even fixed already - I haven't followed SDL development for almost two
years. I don't even know what the status of SDL 1.3 is, whether it has
already supplanted 1.2 as the "stable" version.

> ... someone else on the mailing lists (Urs, I think) said that he had
> problems with Pipmak's edge-resistance on KDE's window manager

Didn't we eliminate the edge resistance (r177)?

> Maybe we need to, instead, look at the workaround to prevent the mouse from
> becoming permanently grabbed. I think it was to generate a mouse-motion
> event, which would be why the mouse jumps.

Are you talking about any of revs 178, 179, 180, 195? I'm not sure if
they have anything to do with the issue.

> Or make it possible to force
> grabbing *off* permanently (but this probably would not improve anything).

That would make direct mouse mode unusable.

-Christian

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Re: Proposed change to Pipmak's grabbing

2009-10-31T16:21:59Z

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Christian Walther wrote:

> I have tried this patch, and it appears to work as intended. However, I
> dislike the intention, because I think it decreases usability.
>
> My main objection is that it makes the user aware of the grabbing and
> requires him to think about it and understand the concept. The grabbing
> should be an implementation detail, something that happens in the
> background without the user noticing. Since you say you found it
> awkward, it appears that this has not been the case for you? Perhaps
> there's a way of fixing that, instead of trying to cover up the
> symptoms? As it is, my impression is that you made things much more
> awkward than before. It worked (mostly) nicely for me on Mac OS X
> before, if it didn't for you on Linux, can you explain how?

Now that I think about it that way (as an implementation detail), I think it
does make things worse.

What I don't like is that Pipmak makes the mouse jump when the mouse moves
over and past the window. Although, this would not be much of an issue if I
were only playing a Pipmak game, instead of using it for development. I have
tried Pipmak on Mac OS X (although I don't own a Macintosh), and it is much
smoother on that system. It seems that this problem occurs on X11, no matter
what the window manager, since someone else on the mailing lists (Urs, I
think) said that he had problems with Pipmak's edge-resistance on KDE's window
manager (KWM, I think), and I have experienced it with three other window
managers (metacity, xfwm, and stumpwm).

Maybe we need to, instead, look at the workaround to prevent the mouse from
becoming permanently grabbed. I think it was to generate a mouse-motion
event, which would be why the mouse jumps. Or make it possible to force
grabbing *off* permanently (but this probably would not improve anything).

> Also, being able to ungrab while in direct mouse mode is confusing.

Yes, I admit I had not thought about that. That makes things even more awkward.
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Re: Proposed change to Pipmak's grabbing

2009-10-31T09:47:45Z

Aidan Gauland wrote:
> I have writtien a patch for Pipmak that changes the way it grabs the
> window-manager input
> ...
>
> I wrote this patch, because I always found the auto-grabbing a bit akward, and
> I would like some feedback from the other Pipmak users on this.

I have tried this patch, and it appears to work as intended. However, I
dislike the intention, because I think it decreases usability.

My main objection is that it makes the user aware of the grabbing and
requires him to think about it and understand the concept. The grabbing
should be an implementation detail, something that happens in the
background without the user noticing. Since you say you found it
awkward, it appears that this has not been the case for you? Perhaps
there's a way of fixing that, instead of trying to cover up the
symptoms? As it is, my impression is that you made things much more
awkward than before. It worked (mostly) nicely for me on Mac OS X
before, if it didn't for you on Linux, can you explain how?

Also, being able to ungrab while in direct mouse mode is confusing.

Technical note: There was a reason why we also grab in joystick mode,
where it wouldn't normally be necessary. That hasn't always been like
that. I don't remember exactly (would have to consult the SVN log), but
I think it was that otherwise I didn't manage to always get seamless
transitions between joystick and direct mode, without jumps of the
cursor. Ideally that is something that should be fixed in SDL, but I
didn't succeed on Mac OS X at the time, and gave up when I noticed that
things weren't any better on Windows and X11.

-Christian

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Re: Development of Video on Pipmak

2009-10-29T10:37:47Z

Hi,

How's your game and Ogg Theora implmetation coming, if you don't mind me asking?

Any release date? I really am looking forward to the first full free game using the Pipmak engine.

Thanks,

James CW

--- On Fri, 7/17/09, valerian.g@... <valerian.g@...> wrote:

From: valerian.g@... <valerian.g@...>
Subject: Development of Video on Pipmak
To: pipmak-devel@...
Date: Friday, July 17, 2009, 2:25 PM

Hello,

I represent a french team developing a free game using Pipmak engine.
We know that the video integration is not yet done for Pipmak.
However, we’re going to really need this feature and it’s the reason why we
offer our services to develop voluntarily this feature for Pipmak.
We noticed the first video implementation you would like to do is for Ogg
Theora.

Would you be interested by our proposal ?
Do you have a development standard to give us ?
Have you started to work on this implementation ?
If you haven’t, have you thought about it and what are your advices ?

Thanks for reading and above all thank you for this amazing game engine !

Val

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Proposed change to Pipmak's grabbing

2009-10-26T02:18:33Z

Hello,

I have writtien a patch for Pipmak that changes the way it grabs the
window-manager input as follows:
* It no longer automatically when the mouse enters the window.
* It no longer ungrabs the mouse when the mouse is run against the window edge.
* Pressing Ctrl+Alt toggles the grabbing.
* When grabbing is on, a message is displayed in the window title that tells
the user how to get his mouse back.
* All calls to SDL_WM_GrabInput() have been changed to call a new function in
Pipmak itself: pipmakGrabInput().
* pipmakGrabInput() handles changing the title to add the message mentioned above.

I wrote this patch, because I always found the auto-grabbing a bit akward, and
I would like some feedback from the other Pipmak users on this.

--Aidan

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Re: Development of Video on Pipmak

2009-07-25T00:22:18Z

This is a great idea!

I will point out that the Blender Game Engine and the OGRE 3D engine (both open-source) have support for realtime Theora video textures. I don't have a clue how similar their code is to Pipmak's, but maybe their implementations can at least provide some ideas.

valerian.g wrote:

Hello,

I represent a french team developing a free game using Pipmak engine.
We know that the video integration is not yet done for Pipmak.
However, were going to really need this feature and its the reason why we
offer our services to develop voluntarily this feature for Pipmak.
We noticed the first video implementation you would like to do is for Ogg
Theora.

Would you be interested by our proposal ?
Do you have a development standard to give us ?
Have you started to work on this implementation ?
If you havent, have you thought about it and what are your advices ?

Thanks for reading and above all thank you for this amazing game engine !

Val

Re: Pipmak for iPhone and/or PSP

2009-07-24T04:10:17Z

IrishRed863 wrote:
> I've used FMod and Torque 2D, to name two well-known external libs, in iPhone
> apps that were approved by Apple. While Apple reserves the right to reject
> an app, they apparently do not tend to do so on those grounds alone. In
> fact, during the license process the FMod guys reported that they've not had
> a single iPhone licensee have a rejected app yet.

Thanks for the information. Good to have another iPhone developer around.

> I realize the presence of an interpreter may be a little different, but I
> think (and may be wrong here) that Torque is also running an interpreter for
> its script.

As far as I can see, the issue is not presence of an interpreter (and
even less use of third-party libraries), but the possibiliy to interpret
user-supplied code that is not part of the signed application. So, a
Pipmak game should be fine, but Pipmak as a standalone application wouldn't.

-Christian

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Re: Pipmak for iPhone and/or PSP

2009-07-23T15:27:30Z

I've used FMod and Torque 2D, to name two well-known external libs, in iPhone apps that were approved by Apple. While Apple reserves the right to reject an app, they apparently do not tend to do so on those grounds alone. In fact, during the license process the FMod guys reported that they've not had a single iPhone licensee have a rejected app yet.

I realize the presence of an interpreter may be a little different, but I think (and may be wrong here) that Torque is also running an interpreter for its script.

Just additional data points on this topic.

Thank you gentlemen. That makes perfect sense... what a shame...

JC

Christian Walther wrote:

jcowen wrote:
> how difficult would it be to create a version that runs on the
> iphone? or perhaps the PSP?

Technically, I'd expect an iPhone port to be feasible, and it's
actually on the list of things that I'd like to do sometime...

There is, however, a political problem, as Aidan has already
mentioned: Even if I do port it, I won't be able to publish it as a
standalone application, because it violates Apple's SDK conditions:
-Christian

Re: Development of Video on Pipmak

2009-07-18T03:05:09Z

valerian.g writes:
> I have started to get the SVN version of Pipmak and began to install it
> following the wiki page made by Andrea Viarengo.

So you're using MS Visual Studio? As you can see, we currently don't have
VS projects in SVN. If you get yours into a sufficiently generic state to
run on anyone's computer (no hardcoded absolute paths etc.), I'd be
interested in including it.

> Are the version of library describe in the wiki, the ones we must use,
> because they are not the latest version and for the moment I take the
> latest.

Let me check - I haven't updated any of my libraries since the last
release. Pipmak 0.2.7 was built with SDL 1.2.13, SDL_image 1.2.6, SDL_ttf
2.0.9, PhysicsFS 1.0.1, Lua 5.0.3, OpenAL 1.1, libogg 1.1.3, libvorbis
1.2.0.

Current versions (where different) are SDL_image 1.2.7, PhysicsFS 1.0.2
(2.0.0 may or may not work - but thanks for bringing it to my attention,
it seems to have some useful new features!), libogg 1.1.4, libvorbis
1.2.3. These all seem to be minor updates and should work. Don't use Lua
5.1, it has a few syntactic changes compared to 5.0 and I intend to
switch to it with Pipmak 0.3.

-Christian

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Re: Development of Video on Pipmak

2009-07-17T15:03:48Z

Thank you Christian for your quick reply.
I think we will keep Theora first as it is in the same line as Ogg vorbis for sound.
I have started to get the SVN version of Pipmak and began to install it following the wiki page made by Andrea Viarengo.
Are the version of library describe in the wiki, the ones we must use, because they are not the latest version and for the moment I take the latest.
Let me know if i must rollback my installation.
Val

Re: Development of Video on Pipmak

2009-07-17T13:50:19Z

Superb! I hope you succeed, and I look forward to your game!

Any development window planned? I don't mean to push you, just curious..

Thanks,

James

--- On Fri, 7/17/09, valerian.g@... <valerian.g@...> wrote:

From: valerian.g@... <valerian.g@...>
Subject: Development of Video on Pipmak
To: pipmak-devel@...
Date: Friday, July 17, 2009, 2:25 PM

Hello,

I represent a french team developing a free game using Pipmak engine.
We know that the video integration is not yet done for Pipmak.
However, we’re going to really need this feature and it’s the reason why we
offer our services to develop voluntarily this feature for Pipmak.
We noticed the first video implementation you would like to do is for Ogg
Theora.

Would you be interested by our proposal ?
Do you have a development standard to give us ?
Have you started to work on this implementation ?
If you haven’t, have you thought about it and what are your advices ?

Thanks for reading and above all thank you for this amazing game engine !

Val

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Re: Development of Video on Pipmak

2009-07-17T13:15:12Z

Hello Val

> I represent a french team developing a free game using Pipmak engine.
> We know that the video integration is not yet done for Pipmak.
> However, were going to really need this feature and its the reason why we
> offer our services to develop voluntarily this feature for Pipmak.

That would be very welcome! Video support is about the most requested feature
currently, it's quite a chunk of work (I assume), and as you may have noticed
I have been busy with a lot of other stuff besides Pipmak lately.

> We noticed the first video implementation you would like to do is for Ogg
> Theora.

I don't insist on that, it's just what seemed easiest to me, at the first
glance. I'll accept anything, as long as it's GPL-compatible,
non-patent-encumbered, and runs at least on Mac OS X, Windows, and Linux.

> Would you be interested by our proposal ?

Sure! Even if, hypothetically, it shouldn't turn out to my liking, I think
having something is better than nothing, and it can always be improved later.
So, contributions are welcome. And, of course, you're free to do it any way
you like for your own use (within the licence), no interest or permission
from my part required.

> Do you have a development standard to give us ?

Not really. There's a short document about the general architecture at
<http://pipmak.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Notes_on_Pipmak%27s_architecture>
(will probably move to
<http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/pipmak/index.php?title=Notes_on_Pipmak
%27s_architecture> soonish). In terms of code style, just stick to the style
of the existing code. Once your code makes it into the official trunk, you
will have to live with me messing around in it to adapt it to my ideas (which
develop as I go), but I try to do that in a cooperative way. ;)

In general, I'd say, just go for it, and we can discuss specifics as they
come up. I'm here to help. You're welcome (even encouraged) to use this
mailing list for discussions, and once you have posted something that shows
that you're serious about completing this, I could give you an SVN branch to
work in too, if that's desired.

> Have you started to work on this implementation ?

No.

> If you havent, have you thought about it and what are your advices ?

I haven't spent a lot of thought on it. My general idea is that, in the Lua
interface, movies should be objects as similar as possible to images (just
with methods like play, stop, go to a specific frame...) and should be
accepted everywhere images are accepted (patches, node backgrounds).

Thanks for your interest, and let us know about the progress of your game
too!

-Christian

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Development of Video on Pipmak

2009-07-17T11:25:41Z

Hello,

I represent a french team developing a free game using Pipmak engine.
We know that the video integration is not yet done for Pipmak.
However, were going to really need this feature and its the reason why we
offer our services to develop voluntarily this feature for Pipmak.
We noticed the first video implementation you would like to do is for Ogg
Theora.

Would you be interested by our proposal ?
Do you have a development standard to give us ?
Have you started to work on this implementation ?
If you havent, have you thought about it and what are your advices ?

Thanks for reading and above all thank you for this amazing game engine !

Val

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Re: Pipmak for iPhone and/or PSP

2009-01-23T17:07:10Z

Thank you gentlemen. That makes perfect sense... what a shame...

JC

Christian Walther wrote:

jcowen wrote:
> how difficult would it be to create a version that runs on the
> iphone? or perhaps the PSP?

Technically, I'd expect an iPhone port to be feasible, and it's
actually on the list of things that I'd like to do sometime...

There is, however, a political problem, as Aidan has already
mentioned: Even if I do port it, I won't be able to publish it as a
standalone application, because it violates Apple's SDK conditions:
-Christian

Re: Pipmak for iPhone and/or PSP

2009-01-23T11:34:23Z

jcowen wrote:
> how difficult would it be to create a version that runs on the
> iphone? or perhaps the PSP?

Technically, I'd expect an iPhone port to be feasible, and it's
actually on the list of things that I'd like to do sometime (that
doesn't mean I'll get around to it, however). Some adaptations might
have to be made for the limited resources, e.g. scaling down big
panoramas, and for the touch UI, but the basic capabilities are all
there - it has OpenGL, OpenAL, and SDL exists too.

There is, however, a political problem, as Aidan has already
mentioned: Even if I do port it, I won't be able to publish it as a
standalone application, because it violates Apple's SDK conditions:

> An Application may not itself install or launch other executable
> code by any means, including without limitation through the use of a
> plug-in architecture, calling other frameworks, other APIs or
> otherwise. No interpreted code may be downloaded and used in an
> Application except for code that is interpreted and run by Apple's
> Published APIs and built-in interpreter(s).

It may be possible to publish a whole game made with Pipmak, as long
as Pipmak is inseparably coupled to it and can't be used to run
arbitrary content.

I can't say anything about the PSP as I'm not familiar with that system.

-Christian

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Re: Pipmak for iPhone and/or PSP

2009-01-23T00:48:07Z

jcowen wrote:
> just out of curiousity... I'm not a developer but I've been using Pipmak for
> some teaching of interactive concepts... how difficult would it be to create
> a version that runs on the iphone? or perhaps the PSP?

Christian would probably be able to best answer this, but I have a few things
to say on this topic. I seriously doubt that Apple would sign it, because the
Pipmak engine is completely separate from a Pipmak game, so anyone could use
the Pipmak binary packaged with a game to run their own game. Pipmak could be
modified to run only projects that have been signed by Apple, and this would
probably not break anything. And as long as there is a version of SDL for the
iPhone, I think Pipmak could be ported to the iPhone, but I don't know about
the PSP.

But Christian is the boss here, so listen to him, not me. ;)

-Aidan

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Pipmak for iPhone and/or PSP

2009-01-22T20:14:25Z

just out of curiousity... I'm not a developer but I've been using Pipmak for some teaching of interactive concepts... how difficult would it be to create a version that runs on the iphone? or perhaps the PSP?

Thanks for any ideas on this...

Re: TODO - COPY_PIPMAK_TERMINAL_TO_STDOUT

2008-11-22T13:48:57Z

Christian Walther wrote:
> Aidan Gauland wrote:
> Some nitpicky comments about the rest:

>
> - Checking the argument with lua_isboolean() is not necessary, as
> every Lua value has a boolean value (nil and false are false,
> everything else is true). By that check, you're unnecessarily
> forbidding use of anything but strictly true and false. I don't think
> it hurts much in this case though, as this function probably isn't
> ever called with a more complex expression than "true" or "false".
>
> - For argument checking (assuming that you want to stop Lua execution
> and not just proceed with a warning), it's better to use the auxiliary
> functions that call lua_error() than just printing a message to the
> terminal, such as luaL_error(), luaL_typerror(), luaL_checknumber()
> etc. (they're not documented, but their source in lauxlib.c is simple
> enough), so that the user gets an indication of where in their code
> the error happens.

I agree with you on both points. I didn't know Lua had those error reporting
functions.

> - I personally would have used something more human-readable than
> "PmkTerm" to mark the output. (What the heck is a "Pmk"? :) )
>
>> And does anyone else want Pipmak's error messages to go to stderr
>> as well?
>> I'm still thinking of an easy to make Pipmak do this.
>
> What exactly do you mean by error messages? Those that go through
> errorMessage()? They generally mean that Pipmak doesn't run at all,
> and since Pipmak runs for me, I never see them anyway. Those on the
> terminal? We already have them on stdout, thanks to your addition. And
> since Pipmak isn't a noninteractive tool that I call in a shell script
> or something, I see no need to differentiate between stdout and
> stderr. So, no, I personally don't.

Hmmm, good point. I didn't think about Pipmak not being a non-interactive
program.

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Re: TODO - COPY_PIPMAK_TERMINAL_TO_STDOUT

2008-11-22T02:19:21Z

Aidan Gauland wrote:
> I've addressed the To Do item "Add a way to enable the
> COPY_PIPMAK_TERMINAL_TO_STDOUT flag at run time", and committed my
> changes
> (which add to the Pipmak reference).

Cool, thanks!

> But it would good to have somebody else
> (I'm looking at you Christian ;) ) look at the documentation, to
> make sure
> that someone other than the programmer who made the changes can
> understand them.

Looks fine to me (but then I'm a programmer too). Personally I
wouldn't have seen a need to mention the internal variable name
(CpyTermToStdout), but I guess it doesn't do any harm.

Some nitpicky comments about the rest:

- Checking the argument with lua_isboolean() is not necessary, as
every Lua value has a boolean value (nil and false are false,
everything else is true). By that check, you're unnecessarily
forbidding use of anything but strictly true and false. I don't think
it hurts much in this case though, as this function probably isn't
ever called with a more complex expression than "true" or "false".

- For argument checking (assuming that you want to stop Lua execution
and not just proceed with a warning), it's better to use the auxiliary
functions that call lua_error() than just printing a message to the
terminal, such as luaL_error(), luaL_typerror(), luaL_checknumber()
etc. (they're not documented, but their source in lauxlib.c is simple
enough), so that the user gets an indication of where in their code
the error happens.

- I personally would have used something more human-readable than
"PmkTerm" to mark the output. (What the heck is a "Pmk"? :) )

> And does anyone else want Pipmak's error messages to go to stderr
> as well?
> I'm still thinking of an easy to make Pipmak do this.

What exactly do you mean by error messages? Those that go through
errorMessage()? They generally mean that Pipmak doesn't run at all,
and since Pipmak runs for me, I never see them anyway. Those on the
terminal? We already have them on stdout, thanks to your addition. And
since Pipmak isn't a noninteractive tool that I call in a shell script
or something, I see no need to differentiate between stdout and
stderr. So, no, I personally don't.

-Christian

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TODO - COPY_PIPMAK_TERMINAL_TO_STDOUT

2008-11-21T12:59:20Z

Hello,

I've addressed the To Do item "Add a way to enable the
COPY_PIPMAK_TERMINAL_TO_STDOUT flag at run time", and committed my changes
(which add to the Pipmak reference). But it would good to have somebody else
(I'm looking at you Christian ;) ) look at the documentation, to make sure
that someone other than the programmer who made the changes can understand them.

And does anyone else want Pipmak's error messages to go to stderr as well?
I'm still thinking of an easy to make Pipmak do this.

-Aidan

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Re: Would like to make a small addition to Pipmak

2008-11-02T06:47:08Z

rivenwanderer wrote:
> http://www.nabble.com/file/p20287577/defaults.lua defaults.lua
> OK, that was easier than I'd expected! I've uploaded my implementation
> (assuming the Nabble interface does what I want). The tabs may be wrong,
> and the nesting of if blocks is a bit messy, but it works :)

Cool, thanks for the contribution!

> I discovered that if you specify a handle with a negative azimuth, it draws
> properly when you show handles with "C", but the negative portion does not
> recognize your clicks to transfer you to the target node. So I added a
> check to make sure that my center-referenced coordinates are always
> converted to positive azimuths (maybe this should be done for all azimuths?
> or should other work be done so that the click is recognized?)

Good point, I fixed this in revision 212
<http://pipmak.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/pipmak?view=rev&revision=212>.
Your suggestion is good - wrapping the left edge of the handle into the
range [0, 360) at creation time is more efficient than checking it
modulo 360 in the hit test function.

> I'd obviously like to see center-referenced handles make it into the
> official release at some point

Certainly - your change is in as revision 213 and will be included in
the next release. I made one small change (besides fixing the
indentation and adding documentation): assigning to handle.az is not
necessary in the panoramic case, Pipmak only ever uses handle.x (and
dito for el/y).

> but I saw that the
> pipmak_internal.handle(handle) function can be overridden by defining it in
> my own project's main.lua, which makes me happy :)

Well, yeah, but that's a bit hacky. Projects are not supposed to use
pipmak_internal (that's why it's called internal) and its contents may
change in arbitrary ways between releases, breaking your project.

-Christian

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Re: Would like to make a small addition to Pipmak

2008-11-02T00:18:34Z

defaults.lua
OK, that was easier than I'd expected! I've uploaded my implementation (assuming the Nabble interface does what I want). The tabs may be wrong, and the nesting of if blocks is a bit messy, but it works :)

I discovered that if you specify a handle with a negative azimuth, it draws properly when you show handles with "C", but the negative portion does not recognize your clicks to transfer you to the target node. So I added a check to make sure that my center-referenced coordinates are always converted to positive azimuths (maybe this should be done for all azimuths? or should other work be done so that the click is recognized?)

I'd obviously like to see center-referenced handles make it into the official release at some point--but I saw that the pipmak_internal.handle(handle) function can be overridden by defining it in my own project's main.lua, which makes me happy :)

Thanks for the help so far!

Re: Would like to make a small addition to Pipmak

2008-10-31T14:02:45Z

Hi rivenwanderer

I was just writing my reply to your e-mail (sorry for the delay, busy
days at work) and was about to suggest moving such discussion to the
mailing lists. I see you found them on your own - welcome.

rivenwanderer wrote:
> I'm not that familiar with Pipmak's source code, nor with Lua in general.
> However, I'd like to add the option to specify handle locations in terms of the
> center of the rectangle (with perhaps parameters name [caz, cel] or something
> similar). Internally, this could hopefully just be mapped back to the regular
> representation (az=caz-w/2, el=cel+h/2) in a seamless way so that the rest of
> the treatment of handles would be unaffected.

Sounds like a good idea - and it's even something you can add without
having to recompile Pipmak.

I agree with your suggestion, caz/cel would just override az/el when
specified. For flat nodes, I'd add cx/cy that override x/y.

> Can anyone point me at the portion of the source where this could be
> accomplished?

Short answer: defaults.lua, function pipmak_internal.handle(handle)
(line 521 in my development version). The defaults.lua file is at
resources/resources/defaults.lua in the source code (if you want to
compile from source), in
Pipmak.app/Contents/Resources/resources/defaults.lua on Mac OS, or at
resources/defaults.lua in the file "Pipmak Resources", which is a ZIP
archive, on Windows and Linux.

Long answer: Pipmak can be divided into a "Lua side" and a "C side".
Reading project Lua files obviously belongs to the Lua side, but the Lua
side extends futher into Pipmak's innards in that things that Lua is
good at, like handling of dynamic lists, strings, and tables, are done
in Lua. The Lua side is entirely implemented in the mentioned
defaults.lua file (that you can modify in a released binary version,
without having to compile the C side or even needing an SVN checkout or
a source release). All the rest, like the whole rendering and event
handling, is done in C. The interface between the Lua side and the C
side consists of functions callable from Lua but implemented in C,
mostly in file pipmakLuaLib.c, and C objects (structs) wrapped as Lua
"userdata" objects (images and sounds are examples of such objects).
Other objects have representations on both the Lua side and the C side,
such as nodes. The Lua representation (that the project author interacts
with) in that case is an ordinary Lua table, with a metatable assigned
that gives the object its methods. Projects are supposed to treat these
tables as opaque objects, only using their methods or pipmak functions
to interact with them, but the contents of the table are plainly
accessible for those who want to take a look. The C representation of
the object is a C struct that is never directly touched by the project's
Lua code. The two representations refer to each other, and each only
contains as much information as the respective side needs (they largely
overlap, but neither is a subset of the other).

Handles, in particular, are handled entirely on the Lua side, they have
no C representation (hit testing is done by event handling branching out
from the C side to the Lua side by calling function
pipmak_internal.getcontrol_flat() or ..._pano()). Their Lua
representation, incidentally, is directly the table a node.lua file uses
to describe the handle, and the "handle" function that interprets it
mostly consists of argument validation (and conversion of the simplified
"target/effect" syntax for navigation controls to the generic syntax).
Recall that a node.lua statement like "handle { target = 15 }", while
conceptually a declarative statement, is technically a Lua function call
- function "handle" is called with a new table (that maps the string
"target" to the number 15) as a single argument. There is no parser for
node.lua syntax built into Pipmak, reading a node.lua file means running
it. That's the powerful concept that makes it effortless (from the point
of view of me, the Pipmak developer) to support things like making the
image of a patch not constant, but dependent on game state (or even much
more complex things like Andrea's Autocubic system).

Loading a node from a node.lua file works roughly as follows: On the C
side, the C representation of the node object is created and a few of
its most important fields are filled in. Then the Lua representation is
created (still on the C side, by Lua C API calls), the two
representations are cross-referenced, and then handed over to the Lua
side by calling function pipmak_internal.loadnode() (defined in
defaults.lua). That function initializes more fields in the Lua table
representation of the node object and then executes node.lua. Node.lua
calls back to functions like "handle". These functions are only assigned
to these short names during execution of node.lua and unassigned
afterwards (to stop people from trying to call them at other times than
node loading, which would make a mess). Their permanent definitions live
under the same names in the pipmak_internal table, i.e.
pipmak_internal.handle() etc. These functions fill more values into the
Lua representation of the node object. When control returns from the Lua
side to the C side after the end of pipmak_internal.loadnode(), the C
representation of the node is fully initialized by reading out some of
the contents of the Lua representation and storing them in the C struct.

(Disclaimer: This is all written mostly from memory and may contain
small inaccuracies.)

> In general, is there any documentation of the overall structure of Pipmak's architecture?

There isn't, as far as I'm aware. I hope what I wrote above helps to
some extent. You're welcome to put it onto the wiki and augment it by
your own observations. If you have more questions, please come back and
ask. I can show you an implementation of your proposed "handle center"
feature if you like, that's a matter of a few minutes, but maybe you
want to have a try yourself first.

When you examine pipmak_internal.handle(), there's one potentially
confusing expression that jumps at me right now: the line "if
math.mod(node.type, 2) == 1" should be read as "if this node is flat".
It has historically happened that the node types for flat nodes (slides,
panels) are odd, while panoramic node types (cubic, equirectangular)
are even (equirectangular is currently only used for hotspot maps, not
for nodes).

-Christian

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Would like to make a small addition to Pipmak

2008-10-31T09:41:42Z

I'm not that familiar with Pipmak's source code, nor with Lua in general.
However, I'd like to add the option to specify handle locations in terms of the
center of the rectangle (with perhaps parameters name [caz, cel] or something
similar). Internally, this could hopefully just be mapped back to the regular
representation (az=caz-w/2, el=cel+h/2) in a seamless way so that the rest of
the treatment of handles would be unaffected.

Can anyone point me at the portion of the source where this could be
accomplished? In general, is there any documentation of the overall structure
of Pipmak's architecture?

Thanks!
-rivenwanderer

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Re: Named nodes - request for testing

2008-10-22T07:14:27Z

Yes,

You are right, if we want to maintain compatibility with old project, this
is the only (or simplest) way, I have understand.
I have read the doc very quickly...

I think the better way to doesn't make confusion is to use absolute paths,
and use relatives one for modules...

Now r211 seems ready to add modules...

Ok for rotation naming too.

Bye

Andrea

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Re: rotation order string

2008-10-22T02:35:20Z

Andrea Viarengo wrote:
> about rotation order, the string to use is "xyz", but z doesn't mean
> rotation around axys Z, but it means rotation around an axis pointing inward,
> I think this could generate confusion...what do you think?
> (using "xya" instead?)

It's true that z doesn't mean the global z axis, but neither does x mean
the global x axis nor y the global y axis. In my opinion, "xya" is more
confusing than "xyz". If anything, we should change all of them,
including the "anglex" and "angley" properties, and I'd rather not do
that because the latter are already out in a released version.

The reason that "angle" is not called "anglez" is that it's already
useful for normal 2D patches, and is the only meaningful angle there,
while "anglex" and "angley" are part of the "advanced" 3D positioning
syntax. Being user-friendly in the basic case justifies the
inconsistency for the advanced case here in my opinion.

-Christian

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Re: Named nodes - request for testing

2008-10-22T02:26:58Z

Andrea Viarengo wrote:

> When I start the project, I enter in node
>
> first/second: Ok
>
> But now if I press "ESC", I get the error:
>
> Error loading lua file "first/0/node.lua": file not found.

Good catch - this is fixed in r210, thanks.

> If I have this structure:
>
> 1) ...first/node.lua
> 2) ...first/second/node.lua
> 3) ...second/node.lua
>
> a) pipmak.gotonode("first") --now I am in (1)
> b) pipmak.gotonode("second") --now I an in (3) not in (2)
> c) pipmak.gotonode("first/second") --now I an in (2)
>
> Is it correct this behaviour? Because it's different from
> navigate into filesystem (I am expect to go into (2) with (b)

This is correct. This behavior is necessary for backwards compatibility
with projects that assume the old "flat" project structure. Or can you
think of a way of retaining backwards compatibility without this
exception (or worse exceptions)?

Is the note about this in the manual not clear enough? Or did you just
not read the manual (for which I wouldn't blame you, it's normal that
people don't read the manual, and if we can somehow be fault-tolerant in
this respect, all the better)?

Besides, apart from the fundamental disadvantage of being an exception
in the first place, I think this exception actually makes things easier
in the case that many (or all) nodes are in the same folder, which I
assume will be the usual case: it allows you to write
pipmak.gotonode("othernode") instead of pipmak.gotonode("../othernode").

> d) pipmak.gotonode("../") -- should it be possible? (doesn't work)
> Error loading lua file "node.lua": file not found.

This should be possible (for the sake of completeness, if nothing else -
I'm not sure if it makes any real sense to have the root of the project
be a node itself). By "doesn't work", do you mean that there's a bug
here, in your opinion? In my opinion, this error message is correct, you
can't go to a node that doesn't have a node.lua (i.e. by definition
isn't a node).

> Now we put a node.lua in the same folder of main.lua
>
> e) pipmak.gotonode("/") --it's works!
> if I press "n" I get "We're at node" (without anymore)

OK, that last part is confusing. I added quotation marks around the node
name in r210, so even an empty node name comes out recognizably.

> Now, delete node.lua in the same folder of main.lua
> (I use command line to run lua)
> h) pipmak.gotonode("/first/second") --ok
> i) pipmak.gotonode("../") --error (not found)
> press "n" --> We are at node -11
> l) pipmak.gotonode("/second")
> Now I get:
> error running text editor handler:
> -11/node.lua:76 calling selection on bad self.......

Whew. What happens is that after the failed loading of node "/", there's
no background node anymore because the old node has been left already,
so the Lua command line overlay drops down into the background node
slot. Therefore, when you call gotonode(), that node is left, and since
the Lua command line code isn't prepared for having its node taken away
from under it, you get the error message in the end.

This is clearly not good. In r211, I've changed the node loading
sequence so that the old node is only left after the new node has been
loaded successfully (entering the new node still only happens
afterward). When there are errors loading the new node, the old node is
not left but stays, avoiding the overlay-becoming-background. Hope this
works better.

Thanks for the meticulous testing!

-Christian

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rotation order string

2008-10-21T06:50:54Z

Hi,

about rotation order, the string to use is "xyz", but z doesn't mean
rotation around axys Z, but it means rotation around an axis pointing inward,
I think this could generate confusion...what do you think?
(using "xya" instead?)

Bye.

Andrea

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Re: Named nodes - request for testing

2008-10-21T06:44:33Z

Hi,

Good and bad news:

r209 works fine with old project (autocubic and forest gen. also),
but it have had little problems with a new one:

New project:

named-test.pipmak/main.lua
named-test.pipmak/first
named-test.pipmak/first/second
named-test.pipmak/first/second/node.lua
named-test.pipmak/first/second/face.png

main.lua:
-------------------------------------------
version (0.27)

title "named-test"
startnode ("first/second")
-------------------------------------------

node.lua:
-------------------------------------------
cubic {
"face.png", --front
"face.png", --right
"face.png", --back
"face.png", --left
"face.png", --top
"face.png" --bottom
}
-------------------------------------------

When I start the project, I enter in node

first/second: Ok

But now if I press "ESC", I get the error:

Error loading lua file "first/0/node.lua": file not found.

This error doesn't happen if I use only one level folder
(i.e.: startnode ("second") and I moved "second" out of "first")

If I have this structure:

1) ...first/node.lua
2) ...first/second/node.lua
3) ...second/node.lua

a) pipmak.gotonode("first") --now I am in (1)
b) pipmak.gotonode("second") --now I an in (3) not in (2)
c) pipmak.gotonode("first/second") --now I an in (2)

Is it correct this behaviour? Because it's different from
navigate into filesystem (I am expect to go into (2) with (b)

d) pipmak.gotonode("../") -- should it be possible? (doesn't work)
Error loading lua file "node.lua": file not found.

Now we put a node.lua in the same folder of main.lua

e) pipmak.gotonode("/") --it's works!
if I press "n" I get "We're at node" (without anymore)

f) pipmak.gotonode("/first/second") --ok
g) pipmak.gotonode("../") --now it's work, but I am in "/"
and not in "/first"

Now, delete node.lua in the same folder of main.lua
(I use command line to run lua)
h) pipmak.gotonode("/first/second") --ok
i) pipmak.gotonode("../") --error (not found)
press "n" --> We are at node -11
l) pipmak.gotonode("/second")
Now I get:
error running text editor handler:
-11/node.lua:76 calling selection on bad self.......

I hope this help you

Bye,

Andrea

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