restoration of images

[Susan Alston]

We have a lab of leased intel iMacs on campus that I maintain.  This summer
we will return those computers and purchase more new intel iMacs to replace
them.  These new iMacs may have a different graphics card, memory, etc.  Can
I create a .dmg image from the old computers before they leave and restore
this image on the new computers when they come in and it will work?

--


Susan Alston
Internet Developer/Blackboard Administrator
Chowan University
252-398-6263
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[Phillip Burk]

Probably not.  I say this as having recent experience trying to image  
a new set of hardware:  the new Nehalem Mac Pros, new iMacs and a new  
Mac Pro from an old image.  The interesting part of it all was  
discovering that our current image was build 9G55 and the new machines  
require an older version.  After completely updating the new computers  
are on build 9G3553.  I haven't spent the time to find out what the  
specific of this are but I doubt that your current image will boot new  
hardware later this year.

You might, however, be able to update your image by taking an older  
machine, imaging that, then booting the newer hardware from an  
external drive and connecting the older machine via target disk mode  
to the newer.  Clone the contents of the older to the new hardware and  
then do an Archive and Install of the new computers via the disk that  
shipped with the new machine.

Good luck.

On Apr 3, 2009, at 8:34 AM, Susan Alston wrote:

> We have a lab of leased intel iMacs on campus that I maintain.  This  
> summer
> we will return those computers and purchase more new intel iMacs to  
> replace
> them.  These new iMacs may have a different graphics card, memory,  
> etc.  Can
> I create a .dmg image from the old computers before they leave and  
> restore
> this image on the new computers when they come in and it will work?

Phil Burk
________________________________________________________
Systems Administrator
Wiley Publishing, Inc.
10475 Crosspoint Blvd
Indianapolis, IN 46256
317-572-3049 vox
317-572-1049 fax


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[Karl Kuehn-3]

On Apr 3, 2009, at 5:34 AM, Susan Alston wrote:

> We have a lab of leased intel iMacs on campus that I maintain.  This  
> summer we will return those computers and purchase more new intel  
> iMacs to replace them.  These new iMacs may have a different  
> graphics card, memory, etc.  Can I create a .dmg image from the old  
> computers before they leave and restore this image on the new  
> computers when they come in and it will work?

        The answer is a conditional "yes". But with some real caveats:

1) The computer you are imaging from has to have an OS version that is  
newer than the one that originally came on the hardware you are going  
to. So if the computers originally came with 10.5.4 you need to have  
an image that is 10.5.6 (10.5.4 would probably not work). When new  
hardware comes out it normally comes out with a version of the OS that  
is custom built for that hardware. The next version of the OS usually  
brings that new hardware into the fold.

2) You have to have used "Combo" updaters on the source computer (as  
in download them from apple.com/support/downloads). Using  
SoftwareUpdate is not good enough. I take the approach of downloading  
every update manually and only use SoftwareUpdate to tell me what I  
need to look for.

3) If you clone an already-booted computer, then you are getting a  
bunch of settings for that specific computer and are then applying  
them to other computers. This might have unintended consequences.  
Apple has smartly dealt with things like hardware profiles, but things  
like the computer name, the LocalKDC, ssh keys, and other things might  
come back to bite you in unexpected ways.

        There are a number of ways of dealing with these problems, and if you  
have not already investigated imaging I would encourage you to do so.  
As a developer on the InstaDMG project my preferred solution to #3  
should be obvious, but there are other ways.

--
                Karl Kuehn
                        larkost@...



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[Karl Kuehn-3]

On Apr 3, 2009, at 10:51 AM, Susan Alston wrote:

> I usually use a generic Computer name and take out the IP address  
> before I clone, and then reset them again after the clone.  Wonder  
> why using Software update makes a difference?  Although alot of the  
> time is does not work for me anyway and I have to go to the website  
> and download the update manually.

        SoftwareUpdate is really good at what it does and only gets the  
updates needed for the exact model of computer it is running on. This  
is a really nice bandwidth saving method, but is totally out-of-sync  
with the needs of imaging. So we have to do the extra leg work to make  
sure that the images we produce are more universal. And Combo updates  
fit this bill because they can't make any assumptions about what model  
you are downloading for, so they take an everything-and-the-kitchen-
sink approach.

--
                Karl Kuehn
                        larkost@...



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[LuKreme]

On 3-Apr-2009, at 06:34, Susan Alston wrote:
> We have a lab of leased intel iMacs on campus that I maintain.  This  
> summer
> we will return those computers and purchase more new intel iMacs to  
> replace
> them.  These new iMacs may have a different graphics card, memory,  
> etc.  Can
> I create a .dmg image from the old computers before they leave and  
> restore
> this image on the new computers when they come in and it will work?

Yes.


--
Rumour is information distilled so finely that it can filter
        through anything. It does not need doors and windows --
        sometimes it does not need people. It can exist free and wild,
        running from ear to ear without ever touching lips.

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[LuKreme]

On 3-Apr-2009, at 09:51, Karl Kuehn wrote:
> 2) You have to have used "Combo" updaters on the source computer (as  
> in download them from apple.com/support/downloads). Using  
> SoftwareUpdate is not good enough. I take the approach of  
> downloading every update manually and only use SoftwareUpdate to  
> tell me what I need to look for.


This is simply not true. I never use Combo updaters and I have done  
this exact procedure several times.

--
I find Windows of absolutely no technical interest... Mac OS X is a
        rock -solid system that's beautifully designed. I much prefer
        it to Linux. -- Bill Joy

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[Karl Kuehn-3]

On Apr 3, 2009, at 3:23 PM, LuKreme wrote:

>> 2) You have to have used "Combo" updaters on the source computer  
>> (as in download them from apple.com/support/downloads). Using  
>> SoftwareUpdate is not good enough. I take the approach of  
>> downloading every update manually and only use SoftwareUpdate to  
>> tell me what I need to look for.
>
> This is simply not true. I never use Combo updaters and I have done  
> this exact procedure several times.

        Then you have been lucky. This has been the cause for many headaches  
for many people. Using the combo updates avoids this potential source  
of problems (mostly... there are still a few stragglers like the multi-
touch help videos).

--
                Karl Kuehn
                        larkost@...



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[Scott Ribe]

> SoftwareUpdate is really good at what it does and only gets the
> updates needed for the exact model of computer it is running on.

This is simply not true.

--
Scott Ribe
scott_ribe@...
http://www.killerbytes.com/
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[LuKreme]

On 3-Apr-2009, at 16:57, Scott Ribe wrote:
>> SoftwareUpdate is really good at what it does and only gets the
>> updates needed for the exact model of computer it is running on.
>
> This is simply not true.

Not true now, not true then, and yet it gets repeated ALL THE TIME.

This is not Windows, folks.  There is OS X, it runs on everything OS X  
runs on.  There is no 'special' version for your computer.  The ONLY  
exception to this is that sometimes when new hardware is introduced,  
it will need a slightly updated version of the OS for some driver (or  
set of drivers).  But by the time the next version comes out, we're  
back to a single version for all hardware.

This is a worse meme than 'reset the pram'.

I used to install OS X on my G4 and then image it to the G3 iMac  
because that machine did not have a DVD drive.  Did it all the time.

--
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        unemployed.

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[Bart Silverstrim]

LuKreme wrote:

> On 3-Apr-2009, at 16:57, Scott Ribe wrote:
>>> SoftwareUpdate is really good at what it does and only gets the
>>> updates needed for the exact model of computer it is running on.
>>
>> This is simply not true.
>
> Not true now, not true then, and yet it gets repeated ALL THE TIME.
>
> This is not Windows, folks.  There is OS X, it runs on everything OS X
> runs on.  There is no 'special' version for your computer.  The ONLY
> exception to this is that sometimes when new hardware is introduced, it
> will need a slightly updated version of the OS for some driver (or set
> of drivers).  But by the time the next version comes out, we're back to
> a single version for all hardware.
>
> This is a worse meme than 'reset the pram'.
>
> I used to install OS X on my G4 and then image it to the G3 iMac because
> that machine did not have a DVD drive.  Did it all the time.

How do those discs that came with my Mac specifically detect the model
I'm installing on? I had a disc that would only install on my specific
Mac. I had another disc bought in a store and it would install on any
Mac with a DVD drive.
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[Scott Ribe]

> There is OS X, it runs on everything OS X
> runs on.  There is no 'special' version for your computer.

Be a little careful there... There was 10.4 PPC vs 10.4 Intel for anybody
maintaining older Macs. And of course there are Macs too old to run 10.5
(10.4, 10.3...), along with with OS versions to old to run particular Macs.

But if: 1) Your old Mac is running the current major release, 2) A point
update has been released since the shipping of the new model you're
interested in, and 3) you have brought your old Mac up to date using
Software Update--then you can clone old->new.

If you're starting from a Mac old enough that it can't run the current major
release (or don't want to bother upgrading its OS), you might be better off
with Migration Assistant.

The above discussion conveniently omits issues with 3rd-party software.
There's a lot less these days that messes with the system rather than just
running in user-land, but you need to be aware of any such software you've
got installed, and make sure you have a version compatible with both that
latest OS update and your new hardware.

--
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scott_ribe@...
http://www.killerbytes.com/
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[mbarto]

I think you need to look at what you are doing.  If you have to return  
the computer before you get the new one, I would suggest that you make  
a bootable copy of you system to a external drive (preferably using  
Firewire 800). It will probably boot on the new system but that is  
unimportant.  I went from PowerPC to Intel. Attach the copied drive to  
you new Mac when you first get it. When you start your new Mac, it  
will asked you if you are updating from an old Mac. Say yes and then  
you select the old drive. After the install, everything works and you  
are using the new software on the new machine. Good luck. I

Also, if you can keep the old computer for a while, simply put it in  
disk target mode and do the same thing.

Michael Barto
Software Architect
LogiQwest Inc.                                   Email:mbarto@...
16458 Bolsa Chica Street, # 15     Cell: 714 883 1949
Huntington Beach, CA  92649        Fax: [phone]
http://www.logiqwest.com/



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[LuKreme]

On 3-Apr-2009, at 17:13, Bart Silverstrim wrote:
> How do those discs that came with my Mac specifically detect the  
> model I'm installing on?

This is a very minor anti-piracy measure.  And if you know what you're  
doing, you CAN install on any mac with those discs.

> I had a disc that would only install on my specific Mac. I had  
> another disc bought in a store and it would install on any Mac with  
> a DVD drive.

And if you'd installed that on your specific mac and then imaged the  
drive (or swapped it) with any other Mac it would have worked fine.

--
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[Bart Silverstrim]

LuKreme wrote:

> On 3-Apr-2009, at 17:13, Bart Silverstrim wrote:
>> How do those discs that came with my Mac specifically detect the model
>> I'm installing on?
>
> This is a very minor anti-piracy measure.  And if you know what you're
> doing, you CAN install on any mac with those discs.
>
>> I had a disc that would only install on my specific Mac. I had another
>> disc bought in a store and it would install on any Mac with a DVD drive.
>
> And if you'd installed that on your specific mac and then imaged the
> drive (or swapped it) with any other Mac it would have worked fine.

I wasn't trying to question that, I was just curious if someone knew
what it was doing to trigger that error when using the OEM disc.

Personally I've thought Apple smarter than the average company now
because they don't get in my way as much as certain others do when I
have to troubleshoot problems. I absolutely HATE "anti-copying" crap
that does nothing but add another step when I have to re-image or
re-install things.
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[Charles Dyer]

On 03 Apr 2009, at 19:13:21, Bart Silverstrim wrote:

>
>
> LuKreme wrote:
>> On 3-Apr-2009, at 16:57, Scott Ribe wrote:
>>>> SoftwareUpdate is really good at what it does and only gets the
>>>> updates needed for the exact model of computer it is running on.
>>>
>>> This is simply not true.
>> Not true now, not true then, and yet it gets repeated ALL THE TIME.
>> This is not Windows, folks.  There is OS X, it runs on everything  
>> OS X runs on.  There is no 'special' version for your computer.  
>> The ONLY exception to this is that sometimes when new hardware is  
>> introduced, it will need a slightly updated version of the OS for  
>> some driver (or set of drivers).  But by the time the next version  
>> comes out, we're back to a single version for all hardware.
>> This is a worse meme than 'reset the pram'.
>> I used to install OS X on my G4 and then image it to the G3 iMac  
>> because that machine did not have a DVD drive.  Did it all the time.
>
> How do those discs that came with my Mac specifically detect the  
> model I'm installing on?

They'll install only on the model they came with... and the system  
that's installed will work on any Mac that supports that system.

> I had a disc that would only install on my specific Mac. I had  
> another disc bought in a store and it would install on any Mac with  
> a DVD drive.

I have, right in front of me, a 20" 2.66 GHz Intel iMac. It boots from  
its internal drive, and that drive is set up with an OS installed  
using the system disc that shipped with it.

I also have, over on the other side of the room, a 1.25 GHz eMac,  
literally four years old. Its internal drive failed recently; I  
haven't got around to replacing it. It boots from external FireWire  
drives. One of those drives is a clone of the system that was on the  
internal drive; the other one is a clone of the system on the Intel  
iMac. The main reason I can't boot my Intel iMac with the older system  
is that it's 10.4, and there were two versions of Tiger: PPC and  
Intel. Tiger/PPC won't boot an Intel system. Usually Tiger/Intel won't  
boot a PPC system. Leopard will boot either an Intel or a PPC system.  
I keep Tiger around because it will boot systems that Leopard won't,  
and it will run Classic. I have an old Jaguar system for the same  
reasons. (I suppose that if I really tried hard enough I could get a  
G3 to boot Tiger, but I don't feel like putting that much effort into  
it when Jaguar works. I'm pretty sure that a G3 ain't gonna run  
Leopard. Not enough RAM, not enough CPU speed, video system that  
simply can't hack it...)
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[Karl Kuehn-3]

On Apr 3, 2009, at 3:46 PM, Karl Kuehn wrote:

> On Apr 3, 2009, at 3:23 PM, LuKreme wrote:
>
>>> 2) You have to have used "Combo" updaters on the source computer  
>>> (as in download them from apple.com/support/downloads). Using  
>>> SoftwareUpdate is not good enough. I take the approach of  
>>> downloading every update manually and only use SoftwareUpdate to  
>>> tell me what I need to look for.
>>
>> This is simply not true. I never use Combo updaters and I have done  
>> this exact procedure several times.
>
> Then you have been lucky. This has been the cause for many  
> headaches for many people. Using the combo updates avoids this  
> potential source of problems (mostly... there are still a few  
> stragglers like the multi-touch help videos).

        I apologize about reviving a dead thread, but I just wanted to make  
sure that the right information is out there, and needed to wait until  
the next "point update" to provide some data. And with today's release  
of 10.5.7 we now have that data:

449MB - 10.5.6 "Delta" update from http://apple.com/support/downloads
449MB - What my iMacs are asking to pull down through Software Update

        So far it looks like Software Update and the download path are the  
same (I would still go the "Combo" route), but then we get more data  
from a thread on forums.appleinsider.com (http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=98165 
):

286MB - 2.16 MacBook

        It should be notes that that number is reported on a few other places  
so I don't think it is a mistake, but I don't have a good sense for  
what determines what version you get... but that was my original  
point: I always use the downloaded version for imaging purposes (and  
the "Combo" at that) because I can never tell when I am getting  
something for the specific computer I am working on through Software  
Update.

        So it looks like sometimes you get lucky and get exactly the  
downloaded version through Software Update, sometimes not. I am going  
to stand by my statement that only using the manually downloaded Combo  
update is the best practice for imaging purposes.

--
                Karl Kuehn
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