should we use bazaar?

[Jason Dillon]

This has been very interesting to follow, though I'm still a bit lost  
as to which of these DVCS has the *best* support for working with an  
existing SVN server to share branches.  Seems like GIT should, but I  
just installed the macport and there is no 'git-svn' commands, bzr  
might be next, as it looks like the hgsvn stuff is still not very  
mature (ie. can't commit back).

Anyone know?

--jason


On Jul 2, 2008, at 12:00 AM, Russel Winder wrote:

> On Tue, 2008-07-01 at 18:38 +0200, Jochen Theodorou wrote:
>
>> I think it is a bit strange.. int the days of cvs you almost never  
>> had
>> free cvs server. cvsdude is the only one I know. Anyway, if this goes
>> through Codehaus for example, then the user of course still needs  
>> access
>> to the server... I think I like the idea to use the mailing list to
>> handle patches and automatically merge after voting much better.
>
> In which case we could ask the Bazaar people whether the Codehaus  
> people
> could run Patch Queue Manager and Bundle Buggy, assuming the Codehaus
> people are going to run Bazaar of course !
>
> Of course there is an assumption here of using Bazaar.  I am not  
> sure if
> Mercurial has anything equivalent.    I suspect Git does not, but I am
> guessing.
>
> --
> Russel.
> ====================================================
> Dr Russel Winder                 Partner
>
> Concertant LLP                   t: [phone], [phone]
> 41 Buckmaster Road,              f: [phone]
> London SW11 1EN, UK.             m: [phone]

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[Martin C. Martin]

Whatever's best now has little influence on what's best in 6 months or a
year.  If you're just looking to play around and find out what problems
come up, you want to use the one that's best now.  If you're looking at
climbing a learning curve with DVCS, and really learning the ins and
outs, you might want to choose based on a number of factors.

Just my two cents,
Martin

Jason Dillon wrote:

> This has been very interesting to follow, though I'm still a bit lost as
> to which of these DVCS has the *best* support for working with an
> existing SVN server to share branches.  Seems like GIT should, but I
> just installed the macport and there is no 'git-svn' commands, bzr might
> be next, as it looks like the hgsvn stuff is still not very mature (ie.
> can't commit back).
>
> Anyone know?
>
> --jason
>
>
> On Jul 2, 2008, at 12:00 AM, Russel Winder wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 2008-07-01 at 18:38 +0200, Jochen Theodorou wrote:
>>
>>> I think it is a bit strange.. int the days of cvs you almost never had
>>> free cvs server. cvsdude is the only one I know. Anyway, if this goes
>>> through Codehaus for example, then the user of course still needs access
>>> to the server... I think I like the idea to use the mailing list to
>>> handle patches and automatically merge after voting much better.
>>
>> In which case we could ask the Bazaar people whether the Codehaus people
>> could run Patch Queue Manager and Bundle Buggy, assuming the Codehaus
>> people are going to run Bazaar of course !
>>
>> Of course there is an assumption here of using Bazaar.  I am not sure if
>> Mercurial has anything equivalent.    I suspect Git does not, but I am
>> guessing.
>>
>> --
>> Russel.
>> ====================================================
>> Dr Russel Winder                 Partner
>>
>> Concertant LLP                   t: [phone], [phone]
>> 41 Buckmaster Road,              f: [phone]
>> London SW11 1EN, UK.             m: [phone]
>
>
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>
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>

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[Jason Dillon-2]

I don't care about 6 months, I care about right now, easiest just  
*ucking works DVCS that can interact with SVN.

--jason


On Jul 3, 2008, at 10:29 PM, Martin C. Martin wrote:

> Whatever's best now has little influence on what's best in 6 months  
> or a year.  If you're just looking to play around and find out what  
> problems come up, you want to use the one that's best now.  If  
> you're looking at climbing a learning curve with DVCS, and really  
> learning the ins and outs, you might want to choose based on a  
> number of factors.
>
> Just my two cents,
> Martin
>
> Jason Dillon wrote:
>> This has been very interesting to follow, though I'm still a bit  
>> lost as to which of these DVCS has the *best* support for working  
>> with an existing SVN server to share branches.  Seems like GIT  
>> should, but I just installed the macport and there is no 'git-svn'  
>> commands, bzr might be next, as it looks like the hgsvn stuff is  
>> still not very mature (ie. can't commit back).
>> Anyone know?
>> --jason
>> On Jul 2, 2008, at 12:00 AM, Russel Winder wrote:
>>> On Tue, 2008-07-01 at 18:38 +0200, Jochen Theodorou wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think it is a bit strange.. int the days of cvs you almost  
>>>> never had
>>>> free cvs server. cvsdude is the only one I know. Anyway, if this  
>>>> goes
>>>> through Codehaus for example, then the user of course still needs  
>>>> access
>>>> to the server... I think I like the idea to use the mailing list to
>>>> handle patches and automatically merge after voting much better.
>>>
>>> In which case we could ask the Bazaar people whether the Codehaus  
>>> people
>>> could run Patch Queue Manager and Bundle Buggy, assuming the  
>>> Codehaus
>>> people are going to run Bazaar of course !
>>>
>>> Of course there is an assumption here of using Bazaar.  I am not  
>>> sure if
>>> Mercurial has anything equivalent.    I suspect Git does not, but  
>>> I am
>>> guessing.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Russel.
>>> ====================================================
>>> Dr Russel Winder                 Partner
>>>
>>> Concertant LLP                   t: [phone], [phone]  
>>> 9203
>>> 41 Buckmaster Road,              f: [phone]
>>> London SW11 1EN, UK.             m: [phone]
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[Robert Fischer]

Interoperability with SVN is going to be hallmark requirement for DVCS moving forward -- it's
probably going to be the lingua franca of VCS.  So as long as you keep SVN around, you can use
what's best now and shift to what's best in the future then, should you be so inclined.

~~ Robert.

Martin C. Martin wrote:

> Whatever's best now has little influence on what's best in 6 months or a
> year.  If you're just looking to play around and find out what problems
> come up, you want to use the one that's best now.  If you're looking at
> climbing a learning curve with DVCS, and really learning the ins and
> outs, you might want to choose based on a number of factors.
>
> Just my two cents,
> Martin
>
> Jason Dillon wrote:
>> This has been very interesting to follow, though I'm still a bit lost
>> as to which of these DVCS has the *best* support for working with an
>> existing SVN server to share branches.  Seems like GIT should, but I
>> just installed the macport and there is no 'git-svn' commands, bzr
>> might be next, as it looks like the hgsvn stuff is still not very
>> mature (ie. can't commit back).
>>
>> Anyone know?
>>
>> --jason
>>
>>
>> On Jul 2, 2008, at 12:00 AM, Russel Winder wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 2008-07-01 at 18:38 +0200, Jochen Theodorou wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think it is a bit strange.. int the days of cvs you almost never had
>>>> free cvs server. cvsdude is the only one I know. Anyway, if this goes
>>>> through Codehaus for example, then the user of course still needs
>>>> access
>>>> to the server... I think I like the idea to use the mailing list to
>>>> handle patches and automatically merge after voting much better.
>>>
>>> In which case we could ask the Bazaar people whether the Codehaus people
>>> could run Patch Queue Manager and Bundle Buggy, assuming the Codehaus
>>> people are going to run Bazaar of course !
>>>
>>> Of course there is an assumption here of using Bazaar.  I am not sure if
>>> Mercurial has anything equivalent.    I suspect Git does not, but I am
>>> guessing.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Russel.
>>> ====================================================
>>> Dr Russel Winder                 Partner
>>>
>>> Concertant LLP                   t: [phone], [phone]
>>> 41 Buckmaster Road,              f: [phone]
>>> London SW11 1EN, UK.             m: [phone]
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
>>    http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>>
>>
>
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[Russel Winder-4]

On Thu, 2008-07-03 at 22:23 +0700, Jason Dillon wrote:
> This has been very interesting to follow, though I'm still a bit lost  
> as to which of these DVCS has the *best* support for working with an  
> existing SVN server to share branches.  Seems like GIT should, but I  
> just installed the macport and there is no 'git-svn' commands, bzr  
> might be next, as it looks like the hgsvn stuff is still not very  
> mature (ie. can't commit back).
>
> Anyone know?

I think your problem of the moment is Mac OS X.

Neither Bazaar nor Git have had their SVN connectivity 'ported'.  I
don't know why for Git, but for Bazaar the problem has been the py-svn
system.  I have raised a query with the bzr-svn person to see if they
can push things along.

Your core analysis is not far wrong, Bazaar and Git can in principle
read and write Subversion repositories, Mercurial cannot, it can only
read them.

I have no idea if you can do anything Git-wise, but for Bazaar you can
install Bazaar from Macports, in fact I would install all the
Bazaar-related things:

bzr                            @1.5            devel/bzr
bzr-gtk                        @0.94.0         devel/bzr-gtk
bzr-rebase                     @0.3            devel/bzr-rebase
bzrtools                       @1.5.0          devel/bzrtools

Then you can download and install plugins to the ~/.bazaar/plugins
directory.  After which you get:

|> bzr plugins
Unable to load bzr-svn extensions - did you build it?
Unable to load plugin 'svn' from '/Users/russel/.bazaar/plugins'
bzrtools 1.6.0
    Various useful plugins for working with bzr.

gtk 0.95.0dev1
    Graphical support for Bazaar using GTK.

launchpad
    Launchpad.net integration plugin for Bazaar.

rebase 0.4.0dev0
    Rebase support.

xmloutput 0.4.4
    This plugin provides xml output for status, log, annotate, missing,
info, version and plugins


I have a problem compiling the bzr-svn -- I have a query out for this.

I am using serious bleeding edge though I am actually using the
development Bazaar branches of all these hence weird numbers with dev in
them.

--
Russel.
====================================================
Dr Russel Winder                 Partner

Concertant LLP                   t: [phone], [phone]
41 Buckmaster Road,              f: [phone]
London SW11 1EN, UK.             m: [phone]

[Russel Winder-4]

On Thu, 2008-07-03 at 22:37 +0700, Jason Dillon wrote:
> I don't care about 6 months, I care about right now, easiest just  
> *ucking works DVCS that can interact with SVN.

Bazaar or Git depending on whether you want easy to use or usable only
by people claiming to be as good as Linus Torvalds.
--
Russel.
====================================================
Dr Russel Winder                 Partner

Concertant LLP                   t: [phone], [phone]
41 Buckmaster Road,              f: [phone]
London SW11 1EN, UK.             m: [phone]

[Luke Daley]

On 04/07/2008, at 1:23 AM, Jason Dillon wrote:

> but I just installed the macport and there is no 'git-svn' commands

You did `port install git-core +svn` ?

And you are doing `git svn` commands? not `git-svn`?

LD.


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[Russel Winder-4]

On Fri, 2008-07-04 at 12:49 +1000, Luke Daley wrote:
> On 04/07/2008, at 1:23 AM, Jason Dillon wrote:
>
> > but I just installed the macport and there is no 'git-svn' commands
>
> You did `port install git-core +svn` ?

I certainly didn't, but I have now.  Thanks for pointing this out.

Whilst the port command is nowhere near as arcane as the git command, it
is clearly trying to go down the same road :-(

> And you are doing `git svn` commands? not `git-svn`?

Should that matter.  git is just a string processing front end to all
the git-??? commands.

--
Russel.
====================================================
Dr Russel Winder                 Partner

Concertant LLP                   t: [phone], [phone]
41 Buckmaster Road,              f: [phone]
London SW11 1EN, UK.             m: [phone]

[Luke Daley]

On 04/07/2008, at 3:23 PM, Russel Winder wrote:

>> And you are doing `git svn` commands? not `git-svn`?
>
> Should that matter.  git is just a string processing front end to all
> the git-??? commands.

No idea. I just started using `git svn` and it worked. The git CLI is  
pure magic to me.

LD.



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[Russel Winder-4]

On Fri, 2008-07-04 at 15:32 +1000, Luke Daley wrote:
> On 04/07/2008, at 3:23 PM, Russel Winder wrote:
>
> >> And you are doing `git svn` commands? not `git-svn`?
> >
> > Should that matter.  git is just a string processing front end to all
> > the git-??? commands.
>
> No idea. I just started using `git svn` and it worked. The git CLI is  
> pure magic to me.

:-)

Actually I think it is beyond magic; git has gone beyond the dark arts
and delved into the realm of reifying CLI chaos.  Not to mention going
for the record of having the most different programming languages used
in a single (in)coherent system.  On the other hand, it is amazing that
the Git commands actually do what the manual entries say they do,
assuming you can understand what the manual is trying to say.  A
mundane, but potentially confusing, Git quiz question has to be:

"What does

        git checkout fred

do?"

The answer is deterministic and knowable, just context dependent.

--
Russel.
====================================================
Dr Russel Winder                 Partner

Concertant LLP                   t: [phone], [phone]
41 Buckmaster Road,              f: [phone]
London SW11 1EN, UK.             m: [phone]

[Jason Dillon]

Did you get it to compile okay?  I can't get apr to compile... gonna  
try a fresh install.

--jason


On Jul 4, 2008, at 12:23 PM, Russel Winder wrote:

> On Fri, 2008-07-04 at 12:49 +1000, Luke Daley wrote:
>> On 04/07/2008, at 1:23 AM, Jason Dillon wrote:
>>
>>> but I just installed the macport and there is no 'git-svn' commands
>>
>> You did `port install git-core +svn` ?
>
> I certainly didn't, but I have now.  Thanks for pointing this out.
>
> Whilst the port command is nowhere near as arcane as the git  
> command, it
> is clearly trying to go down the same road :-(
>
>> And you are doing `git svn` commands? not `git-svn`?
>
> Should that matter.  git is just a string processing front end to all
> the git-??? commands.
>
> --
> Russel.
> ====================================================
> Dr Russel Winder                 Partner
>
> Concertant LLP                   t: [phone], [phone]
> 41 Buckmaster Road,              f: [phone]
> London SW11 1EN, UK.             m: [phone]

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[Russel Winder-4]

On Sat, 2008-07-05 at 10:41 +0700, Jason Dillon wrote:
> Did you get it to compile okay?  I can't get apr to compile... gonna  
> try a fresh install.

|> port list active | grep apr
apr                            @1.3.2          devel/apr
apr-util                       @1.3.2          devel/apr-util
|>

Everytime I have had problems with MacPorts compilations, the advice has
been "Make sure you have an up to date XCode." and generally this has
been the problem, i.e. upgrade XCode and things start compiling as they
should.
--
Russel.
====================================================
Dr Russel Winder                 Partner

Concertant LLP                   t: [phone], [phone]
41 Buckmaster Road,              f: [phone]
London SW11 1EN, UK.             m: [phone]

[Jeff Brown-16]

On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 11:47 AM, Russel Winder
<russel.winder@...> wrote:

>
> I vote for Bazaar.  I think I have convinced Ben to support Bazaar as
> well as Git and Mercurial as Codehaus realizes that Subversion is not
> the tool needed for best support of the project.  This would mean we
> don't have to move to using Launchpad.


I had a meeting this morning with Matthew Porter from Contegix and
while I had his ear I mentioned that some of these discussions were
going on.  Matthew tells me that he is going to follow up with Ben to
discuss details.  Some of the issues that need to be sorted out
include things like how do any/all of these tools fit in with xircles,
fisheye etc. that are all part of the current codehaus infrastructure.



jb
--
Jeff Brown
Director North American Operations
G2One Inc.
http://www.g2one.com/

Autism Strikes 1 in 166
Find The Cause ~ Find The Cure
http://www.autismspeaks.org/

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[Russel Winder-4]

Jeff,

On Mon, 2008-07-07 at 09:56 -0500, Jeff Brown wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 11:47 AM, Russel Winder
> <russel.winder@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > I vote for Bazaar.  I think I have convinced Ben to support Bazaar as
> > well as Git and Mercurial as Codehaus realizes that Subversion is not
> > the tool needed for best support of the project.  This would mean we
> > don't have to move to using Launchpad.
>
>
> I had a meeting this morning with Matthew Porter from Contegix and
> while I had his ear I mentioned that some of these discussions were
> going on.  Matthew tells me that he is going to follow up with Ben to
> discuss details.  Some of the issues that need to be sorted out
> include things like how do any/all of these tools fit in with xircles,
> fisheye etc. that are all part of the current codehaus infrastructure.

I had thought that Ben had had a look at the Xircles issues and has
Mercurial and Git ready to roll and was adding Bazaar to the list
(because I shouted long enough and loud enough :-).  I am guessing that
Ben is trying the three of these out to lead up to a recommendation as
to which one or ones Codehaus should support.  As is obvious, my
preference is for Bazaar because I think the branch model and CLI is the
best.  I feel distinctly uncomfortable with Git, it is too bitty and
somewhat inconsistent.  Mercurial has quite a strange view of branch
which would take some getting used to.

--
Russel.
====================================================
Dr Russel Winder                 Partner

Concertant LLP                   t: [phone], [phone]
41 Buckmaster Road,              f: [phone]
London SW11 1EN, UK.             m: [phone]

[Jeff Brown-16]

On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 10:46 AM, Russel Winder
<russel.winder@...> wrote:

> Jeff,
>
> On Mon, 2008-07-07 at 09:56 -0500, Jeff Brown wrote:
>> On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 11:47 AM, Russel Winder
>> <russel.winder@...> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > I vote for Bazaar.  I think I have convinced Ben to support Bazaar as
>> > well as Git and Mercurial as Codehaus realizes that Subversion is not
>> > the tool needed for best support of the project.  This would mean we
>> > don't have to move to using Launchpad.
>>
>>
>> I had a meeting this morning with Matthew Porter from Contegix and
>> while I had his ear I mentioned that some of these discussions were
>> going on.  Matthew tells me that he is going to follow up with Ben to
>> discuss details.  Some of the issues that need to be sorted out
>> include things like how do any/all of these tools fit in with xircles,
>> fisheye etc. that are all part of the current codehaus infrastructure.
>
> I had thought that Ben had had a look at the Xircles issues and has
> Mercurial and Git ready to roll and was adding Bazaar to the list
> (because I shouted long enough and loud enough :-).  I am guessing that
> Ben is trying the three of these out to lead up to a recommendation as
> to which one or ones Codehaus should support.

It may very well be that Ben has already sorted all of this out.
Matthew just told me he wanted to discuss it with Ben.




jb

--
Jeff Brown
Director North American Operations
G2One Inc.
http://www.g2one.com/

Autism Strikes 1 in 166
Find The Cause ~ Find The Cure
http://www.autismspeaks.org/

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[Jason Dillon]

Okay, I will see if there is a new version of XCode... blah, PITA.

Thanks :-]

--jason


On Jul 5, 2008, at 12:53 PM, Russel Winder wrote:

> On Sat, 2008-07-05 at 10:41 +0700, Jason Dillon wrote:
>> Did you get it to compile okay?  I can't get apr to compile... gonna
>> try a fresh install.
>
> |> port list active | grep apr
> apr                            @1.3.2          devel/apr
> apr-util                       @1.3.2          devel/apr-util
> |>
>
> Everytime I have had problems with MacPorts compilations, the advice  
> has
> been "Make sure you have an up to date XCode." and generally this has
> been the problem, i.e. upgrade XCode and things start compiling as  
> they
> should.
> --
> Russel.
> ====================================================
> Dr Russel Winder                 Partner
>
> Concertant LLP                   t: [phone], [phone]
> 41 Buckmaster Road,              f: [phone]
> London SW11 1EN, UK.             m: [phone]

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[Ben Walding]

On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 1:46 AM, Russel Winder <russel.winder@...> wrote:

> >
> > I vote for Bazaar.  I think I have convinced Ben to support Bazaar as
> > well as Git and Mercurial as Codehaus realizes that Subversion is not
> > the tool needed for best support of the project.  This would mean we
> > don't have to move to using Launchpad.

We are in communication with Contegix about this (to see if they have a preference).

We are most certainly not ready to rock and roll; the last batch of changes I made was to allow us to support a DVCS - not to actually support it.

That being said, because they're not supported by FishEye / JIRA (I think there is a Mercurial plugin now though); the integration is pretty limited.  We'd be running a CGI app over the top of the repositories (e.g. the ViewSVN equivalent).

FWIW:  Subversion 1.5 is slated for the end of the month.

Russel has most certainly been in my ear about it! The contenders are bazaar / Mercurial / git.  And with Russel' persistent badgering, bazaar is getting more probable.

(replies should be CCed to me as I don't subscribe to this list - my perogative as a Codehaus Despot :) )

Cheers,

Ben

[Russel Winder-4]

Ben,

On Thu, 2008-07-10 at 21:57 +1000, Ben Walding wrote:


> We are in communication with Contegix about this (to see if they have
> a preference).
>
> We are most certainly not ready to rock and roll; the last batch of
> changes I made was to allow us to support a DVCS - not to actually
> support it.

Apologies if I gave anyone the idea you were.  I thought I had said that
you had tinkered with Xircles to ensure using a DVCS was viable, and
were tinkering with Bazaar, Mercurial and Git to see which ones Codehaus
might support.
 
> That being said, because they're not supported by FishEye / JIRA (I
> think there is a Mercurial plugin now though); the integration is
> pretty limited.  We'd be running a CGI app over the top of the
> repositories (e.g. the ViewSVN equivalent).

I think the thing to do here Bazaar-wise would be to put the
FishEye/JIRA people in touch with the Bazaar people and see what they
can hammer out.  This probably needs taking offlist.  

> FWIW:  Subversion 1.5 is slated for the end of the month.

Will it actually bring any benefits?   Surely there are bug fixes etc.,
and those are generally worth having, but will the user experience be
any different.  Merge tracking is "foundational" which probably means
not really there and/or very buggy.

> Russel has most certainly been in my ear about it! The contenders are
> bazaar / Mercurial / git.  And with Russel' persistent badgering,
> bazaar is getting more probable.

I have been loud and I am proud of it!  I like Bazaar, it does what I
want, and in ways that make Git look over complicated and
underengineered -- though Git is still faster than Bazaar.

> (replies should be CCed to me as I don't subscribe to this list - my
> perogative as a Codehaus Despot :) )

:-)

--
Russel.
====================================================
Dr Russel Winder                 Partner

Concertant LLP                   t: [phone], [phone]
41 Buckmaster Road,              f: [phone]
London SW11 1EN, UK.             m: [phone]