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size of scripts and dependencies
by P Kishor-3
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Pursuant to the recent email about Titanium dependency hell, I was
curious as to how big really was my tiny 20 line Perl index.cgi. So, with guidance from a couple of monks on PM, I add the following line to my script... END { system( 'wc', '-l', values %INC ) } and got the following (I have reverse sorted them by number of lines of code) 7824 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/darwin-2level/DBI.pm 3900 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/CGI/Simple.pm 2449 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/CGI/Application.pm 1535 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/Config/Simple.pm 1473 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/CGI/Session.pm 1472 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/darwin-2level/JSON/XS.pm 1434 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/overload.pm 1299 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/CGI/Application/Dispatch.pm 1264 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/darwin-2level/Data/Dumper.pm 891 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/Exception/Class.pm 872 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/darwin-2level/DBD/SQLite.pm 851 /Users/punkish/Sites/carbonmodel/app/_perl/Authen.pm 833 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/darwin-2level/DynaLoader.pm 716 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/darwin-2level/Params/Validate.pm 614 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/CGI/Application/Plugin/LogDispatch.pm 604 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/CGI/Carp.pm 566 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/Devel/StackTrace.pm 543 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/JSON/Any.pm 525 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/CGI/Application/Plugin/Session.pm 516 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/darwin-2level/File/Spec/Unix.pm 497 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/warnings.pm 456 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/CGI/Simple/Util.pm 446 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/Crypt/GeneratePassword.pm 440 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/Exporter.pm 437 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/Log/Dispatch.pm 376 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/darwin-2level/Digest/MD5.pm 356 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/Time/Local.pm 356 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/darwin-2level/XSLoader.pm 343 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/AutoLoader.pm 340 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/constant.pm 336 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/darwin-2level/File/Spec.pm 327 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/Exception/Class/TryCatch.pm 316 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/CGI/Application/Plugin/DBH.pm 301 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/Log/Dispatch/Output.pm 283 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/darwin-2level/Scalar/Util.pm 274 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/CGI/Application/Plugin/JSON.pm 274 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/Carp.pm 263 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/Text/ParseWords.pm 259 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/Log/Dispatch/File.pm 248 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/Exporter/Heavy.pm 236 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/darwin-2level/Fcntl.pm 235 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/CGI/Application/Plugin/Config/Simple.pm 233 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/darwin-2level/List/Util.pm 226 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/base.pm 214 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/Class/ISA.pm 206 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/darwin-2level/lib.pm 204 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/common/sense.pm 194 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/UNIVERSAL/require.pm 160 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/darwin-2level/Params/ValidateXS.pm 151 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/Class/Data/Inheritable.pm 147 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/UNIVERSAL.pm 136 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/strict.pm 131 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/Log/Dispatch/Screen.pm 127 /Users/punkish/Sites/carbonmodel/app/_perl/Carbonmodel.pm 100 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/Digest/base.pm 95 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/darwin-2level/Config.pm 93 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/integer.pm 88 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/bytes.pm 82 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/vars.pm 73 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/CGI/Session/ErrorHandler.pm 63 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/Log/Dispatch/Base.pm 51 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/warnings/register.pm 418 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/attributes.pm 40 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/locale.pm 23 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/auto/Config/Simple/autosplit.ix 13 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/auto/Config/Simple/verbose.al 40848 total So, 40K lines of code to create a fairly routine website, and that is not counting any HTML/SQL/JavaScript and CSS. Granted, this is fairly misleading as it includes formatting of lines, comments, etc., but still... is this par for course for other frameworks as well? -- Puneet Kishor ##### CGI::Application community mailing list ################ ## ## ## To unsubscribe, or change your message delivery options, ## ## visit: http://www.erlbaum.net/mailman/listinfo/cgiapp ## ## ## ## Web archive: http://www.erlbaum.net/pipermail/cgiapp/ ## ## Wiki: http://cgiapp.erlbaum.net/ ## ## ## ################################################################ |
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Re: size of scripts and dependencies
by Paul Miller-13
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On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 12:10 PM, P Kishor <punk.kish@...> wrote:
> still... is this par for course for other frameworks as well? other frameworks are much worse. -- If riding in an airplane is flying, then riding in a boat is swimming. 114 jumps, 47.2 minutes of freefall, 90.4 freefall miles. ##### CGI::Application community mailing list ################ ## ## ## To unsubscribe, or change your message delivery options, ## ## visit: http://www.erlbaum.net/mailman/listinfo/cgiapp ## ## ## ## Web archive: http://www.erlbaum.net/pipermail/cgiapp/ ## ## Wiki: http://cgiapp.erlbaum.net/ ## ## ## ################################################################ |
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Re: size of scripts and dependencies
by Michael Graham
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A bare Catalyst test app has about 87K lines. After you add all the plugins and support modules listed the tutorial (DBIx::Class, Template Toolkit, Session, Authentication, Authorization, FormFu) you're up to around 170K lines. Michael On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 11:10:31 -0500 P Kishor <punk.kish@...> wrote: > Pursuant to the recent email about Titanium dependency hell, I was > curious as to how big really was my tiny 20 line Perl index.cgi. So, > with guidance from a couple of monks on PM, I add the following line > to my script... > > END { system( 'wc', '-l', values %INC ) } > > > and got the following (I have reverse sorted them by number of lines > of code) > > 7824 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/darwin-2level/DBI.pm > 3900 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/CGI/Simple.pm > 2449 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/CGI/Application.pm > 1535 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/Config/Simple.pm > 1473 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/CGI/Session.pm > 1472 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/darwin-2level/JSON/XS.pm > 1434 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/overload.pm > 1299 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/CGI/Application/Dispatch.pm > 1264 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/darwin-2level/Data/Dumper.pm > 891 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/Exception/Class.pm > 872 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/darwin-2level/DBD/SQLite.pm > 851 /Users/punkish/Sites/carbonmodel/app/_perl/Authen.pm > 833 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/darwin-2level/DynaLoader.pm > 716 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/darwin-2level/Params/Validate.pm > 614 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/CGI/Application/Plugin/LogDispatch.pm > 604 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/CGI/Carp.pm > 566 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/Devel/StackTrace.pm > 543 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/JSON/Any.pm > 525 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/CGI/Application/Plugin/Session.pm > 516 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/darwin-2level/File/Spec/Unix.pm > 497 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/warnings.pm > 456 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/CGI/Simple/Util.pm > 446 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/Crypt/GeneratePassword.pm > 440 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/Exporter.pm > 437 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/Log/Dispatch.pm > 376 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/darwin-2level/Digest/MD5.pm > 356 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/Time/Local.pm > 356 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/darwin-2level/XSLoader.pm > 343 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/AutoLoader.pm > 340 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/constant.pm > 336 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/darwin-2level/File/Spec.pm > 327 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/Exception/Class/TryCatch.pm > 316 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/CGI/Application/Plugin/DBH.pm > 301 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/Log/Dispatch/Output.pm > 283 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/darwin-2level/Scalar/Util.pm > 274 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/CGI/Application/Plugin/JSON.pm > 274 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/Carp.pm > 263 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/Text/ParseWords.pm > 259 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/Log/Dispatch/File.pm > 248 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/Exporter/Heavy.pm > 236 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/darwin-2level/Fcntl.pm > 235 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/CGI/Application/Plugin/Config/Simple.pm > 233 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/darwin-2level/List/Util.pm > 226 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/base.pm > 214 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/Class/ISA.pm > 206 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/darwin-2level/lib.pm > 204 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/common/sense.pm > 194 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/UNIVERSAL/require.pm > 160 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/darwin-2level/Params/ValidateXS.pm > 151 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/Class/Data/Inheritable.pm > 147 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/UNIVERSAL.pm > 136 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/strict.pm > 131 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/Log/Dispatch/Screen.pm > 127 /Users/punkish/Sites/carbonmodel/app/_perl/Carbonmodel.pm > 100 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/Digest/base.pm > 95 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/darwin-2level/Config.pm > 93 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/integer.pm > 88 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/bytes.pm > 82 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/vars.pm > 73 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/CGI/Session/ErrorHandler.pm > 63 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/Log/Dispatch/Base.pm > 51 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/warnings/register.pm > 418 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/attributes.pm > 40 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/locale.pm > 23 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/auto/Config/Simple/autosplit.ix > 13 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/auto/Config/Simple/verbose.al > > > 40848 total > > > So, 40K lines of code to create a fairly routine website, and that is > not counting any HTML/SQL/JavaScript and CSS. Granted, this is fairly > misleading as it includes formatting of lines, comments, etc., but > still... is this par for course for other frameworks as well? > > > -- Michael Graham <magog@...> ##### CGI::Application community mailing list ################ ## ## ## To unsubscribe, or change your message delivery options, ## ## visit: http://www.erlbaum.net/mailman/listinfo/cgiapp ## ## ## ## Web archive: http://www.erlbaum.net/pipermail/cgiapp/ ## ## Wiki: http://cgiapp.erlbaum.net/ ## ## ## ################################################################ |
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Re: size of scripts and dependencies
by P Kishor-3
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On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 8:24 AM, Michael Graham <magog@...> wrote:
> > A bare Catalyst test app has about 87K lines. > > After you add all the plugins and support modules listed the tutorial > (DBIx::Class, Template Toolkit, Session, Authentication, Authorization, > FormFu) you're up to around 170K lines. Cool! So, I am convinced that CGI::App and its bundle of plug-ins is rather svelte compared to, say, Catalyst. But, now that we are done comparing our overweight weight to a morbidly obese weight, how about CGI::App on its own? To my completely uninformed mind, loading 40,000+ lines to create a small web page sounds like a lot... and, that doesn't even include the web server and the Perl interpreter! The other related issue is a single-piece install vs. lots of bits and bobs. While the latter provides fine-grained control over what one wants, lots of moving parts means lots of places things can go wrong. I guess Titanium is a move toward that perception model of a single-piece install, but Titanium is just a very thin skin holding a lot of jingling jangling bones together. Of course, a single-piece installation will presume certain scaffolding for people, whether they like it or not, and provide certain built-in ways of doing things, but if those ways meet the needs of 80% of the people in an easy, single-click installation, one piece to understand way, heck, we have 80% of customers as happy customers, as happy spokespersons, etc. One way to achieve this would be to simply squish all the various bits and bobs into a single file and called CGI::Mongo. It will still be 40,000+ lines long, but heck, it would be a single file that will be 40,000+ lines long. The Perl interpreter will have to open only one file on every invocation. Then, one can work on trimming what one doesn't need. > > > Michael > > > On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 11:10:31 -0500 > P Kishor <punk.kish@...> wrote: > >> Pursuant to the recent email about Titanium dependency hell, I was >> curious as to how big really was my tiny 20 line Perl index.cgi. So, >> with guidance from a couple of monks on PM, I add the following line >> to my script... >> >> END { system( 'wc', '-l', values %INC ) } >> >> >> and got the following (I have reverse sorted them by number of lines >> of code) >> >> 7824 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/darwin-2level/DBI.pm >> 3900 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/CGI/Simple.pm >> 2449 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/CGI/Application.pm >> 1535 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/Config/Simple.pm >> 1473 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/CGI/Session.pm >> 1472 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/darwin-2level/JSON/XS.pm >> 1434 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/overload.pm >> 1299 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/CGI/Application/Dispatch.pm >> 1264 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/darwin-2level/Data/Dumper.pm >> 891 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/Exception/Class.pm >> 872 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/darwin-2level/DBD/SQLite.pm >> 851 /Users/punkish/Sites/carbonmodel/app/_perl/Authen.pm >> 833 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/darwin-2level/DynaLoader.pm >> 716 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/darwin-2level/Params/Validate.pm >> 614 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/CGI/Application/Plugin/LogDispatch.pm >> 604 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/CGI/Carp.pm >> 566 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/Devel/StackTrace.pm >> 543 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/JSON/Any.pm >> 525 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/CGI/Application/Plugin/Session.pm >> 516 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/darwin-2level/File/Spec/Unix.pm >> 497 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/warnings.pm >> 456 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/CGI/Simple/Util.pm >> 446 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/Crypt/GeneratePassword.pm >> 440 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/Exporter.pm >> 437 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/Log/Dispatch.pm >> 376 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/darwin-2level/Digest/MD5.pm >> 356 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/Time/Local.pm >> 356 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/darwin-2level/XSLoader.pm >> 343 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/AutoLoader.pm >> 340 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/constant.pm >> 336 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/darwin-2level/File/Spec.pm >> 327 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/Exception/Class/TryCatch.pm >> 316 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/CGI/Application/Plugin/DBH.pm >> 301 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/Log/Dispatch/Output.pm >> 283 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/darwin-2level/Scalar/Util.pm >> 274 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/CGI/Application/Plugin/JSON.pm >> 274 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/Carp.pm >> 263 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/Text/ParseWords.pm >> 259 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/Log/Dispatch/File.pm >> 248 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/Exporter/Heavy.pm >> 236 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/darwin-2level/Fcntl.pm >> 235 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/CGI/Application/Plugin/Config/Simple.pm >> 233 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/darwin-2level/List/Util.pm >> 226 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/base.pm >> 214 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/Class/ISA.pm >> 206 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/darwin-2level/lib.pm >> 204 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/common/sense.pm >> 194 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/UNIVERSAL/require.pm >> 160 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/darwin-2level/Params/ValidateXS.pm >> 151 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/Class/Data/Inheritable.pm >> 147 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/UNIVERSAL.pm >> 136 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/strict.pm >> 131 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/Log/Dispatch/Screen.pm >> 127 /Users/punkish/Sites/carbonmodel/app/_perl/Carbonmodel.pm >> 100 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/Digest/base.pm >> 95 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/darwin-2level/Config.pm >> 93 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/integer.pm >> 88 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/bytes.pm >> 82 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/vars.pm >> 73 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/CGI/Session/ErrorHandler.pm >> 63 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/Log/Dispatch/Base.pm >> 51 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/warnings/register.pm >> 418 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/attributes.pm >> 40 /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.8/locale.pm >> 23 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/auto/Config/Simple/autosplit.ix >> 13 /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/auto/Config/Simple/verbose.al >> >> >> 40848 total >> >> >> So, 40K lines of code to create a fairly routine website, and that is >> not counting any HTML/SQL/JavaScript and CSS. Granted, this is fairly >> misleading as it includes formatting of lines, comments, etc., but >> still... is this par for course for other frameworks as well? >> >> >> > > > -- > Michael Graham <magog@...> > -- Puneet Kishor http://www.punkish.org Carbon Model http://carbonmodel.org Charter Member, Open Source Geospatial Foundation http://www.osgeo.org Science Commons Fellow, http://sciencecommons.org/about/whoweare/kishor Nelson Institute, UW-Madison http://www.nelson.wisc.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Assertions are politics; backing up assertions with evidence is science ======================================================================= Sent from Madison, WI, United States ##### CGI::Application community mailing list ################ ## ## ## To unsubscribe, or change your message delivery options, ## ## visit: http://www.erlbaum.net/mailman/listinfo/cgiapp ## ## ## ## Web archive: http://www.erlbaum.net/pipermail/cgiapp/ ## ## Wiki: http://cgiapp.erlbaum.net/ ## ## ## ################################################################ |
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Re: size of scripts and dependencies
by Michael Peters
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On 09/18/2009 09:33 AM, P Kishor wrote:
> But, now that we are done > comparing our overweight weight to a morbidly obese weight, how about > CGI::App on its own? To my completely uninformed mind, loading 40,000+ > lines to create a small web page sounds like a lot... and, that > doesn't even include the web server and the Perl interpreter! But that's not what you tested. You tested Titanium which is not CGI::App. It's an opinionated framework based on CGI::App and it's plugins. If you just want to create something that makes "small web pages" then just load CGI::App and it's dependencies. Also, let's look at those numbers: DBI - 7824 CGI::Simple - 3900 That's 1/4 of all those lines just right there. And if you're going to use a database you need DBI. And if you're going to make a web app you need a CGI interface module (like CGI.pm or CGI::Simple) so I don't see a way to remove those. Also, you're counting just raw lines which means you're counting comments and whitespace (which penalizes modules which are well commented). I'm not saying your criticism isn't valid, I'm just saying that your data is too flawed to support that criticism :) -- Michael Peters Plus Three, LP ##### CGI::Application community mailing list ################ ## ## ## To unsubscribe, or change your message delivery options, ## ## visit: http://www.erlbaum.net/mailman/listinfo/cgiapp ## ## ## ## Web archive: http://www.erlbaum.net/pipermail/cgiapp/ ## ## Wiki: http://cgiapp.erlbaum.net/ ## ## ## ################################################################ |
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Re: size of scripts and dependencies
by P Kishor-3
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Very good points Michael. My response to some of them below --
On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 8:47 AM, Michael Peters <mpeters@...> wrote: > On 09/18/2009 09:33 AM, P Kishor wrote: >> >> But, now that we are done >> comparing our overweight weight to a morbidly obese weight, how about >> CGI::App on its own? To my completely uninformed mind, loading 40,000+ >> lines to create a small web page sounds like a lot... and, that >> doesn't even include the web server and the Perl interpreter! > > But that's not what you tested. You tested Titanium which is not CGI::App. > It's an opinionated framework based on CGI::App and it's plugins. If you > just want to create something that makes "small web pages" then just load > CGI::App and it's dependencies. Actually, I did not test Titanium (I only invoked it as an example). I tested my own application that is cobbled together with the various bits and bobs of CGI::App and various plugins. > > Also, let's look at those numbers: > > DBI - 7824 > CGI::Simple - 3900 > > That's 1/4 of all those lines just right there. And if you're going to use a > database you need DBI. And if you're going to make a web app you need a CGI > interface module (like CGI.pm or CGI::Simple) so I don't see a way to remove > those. > I guess that is what I was trying to get at... one of the things that many Perl modules (and CGI::App as well) make a big deal about is how simple scripts are once you use those modules... for example, the oft quoted example of WebApp.pm and instance script being only a couple of lines. Well, in reality, all the plumbing is still there, just under a carpet. > Also, you're counting just raw lines which means you're counting comments > and whitespace (which penalizes modules which are well commented). I'm not > saying your criticism isn't valid, I'm just saying that your data is too > flawed to support that criticism :) Yes, my data are too flawed, but the criticism is still valid. But, instead of kvetching in the wind, I will actually try an experiment. I will remove all the comments from the modules that I am using (call them the "production versions," analogous to the packed/minified Javascript packages floating around), and even try to squish them into one file. I am curious as to what I end up with. Nevertheless, thanks for indulging with me in this argument. Your points are very valid. > > -- > Michael Peters > Plus Three, LP > > ##### CGI::Application community mailing list ################ > ## ## > ## To unsubscribe, or change your message delivery options, ## > ## visit: http://www.erlbaum.net/mailman/listinfo/cgiapp ## > ## ## > ## Web archive: http://www.erlbaum.net/pipermail/cgiapp/ ## > ## Wiki: http://cgiapp.erlbaum.net/ ## > ## ## > ################################################################ > > -- Puneet Kishor http://www.punkish.org Carbon Model http://carbonmodel.org Charter Member, Open Source Geospatial Foundation http://www.osgeo.org Science Commons Fellow, http://sciencecommons.org/about/whoweare/kishor Nelson Institute, UW-Madison http://www.nelson.wisc.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Assertions are politics; backing up assertions with evidence is science ======================================================================= Sent from Madison, WI, United States ##### CGI::Application community mailing list ################ ## ## ## To unsubscribe, or change your message delivery options, ## ## visit: http://www.erlbaum.net/mailman/listinfo/cgiapp ## ## ## ## Web archive: http://www.erlbaum.net/pipermail/cgiapp/ ## ## Wiki: http://cgiapp.erlbaum.net/ ## ## ## ################################################################ |
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Re: size of scripts and dependencies
by gvimrc
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Michael Graham wrote:
> A bare Catalyst test app has about 87K lines. > > After you add all the plugins and support modules listed the tutorial > (DBIx::Class, Template Toolkit, Session, Authentication, Authorization, > FormFu) you're up to around 170K lines. > > > Michael > > The fact that Titanium isn't quite as bloated as Catalyst offers no comfort to anyone who turned to CGI::Application as an anitdote to Catalyst dependency hell. All I'm saying is that Titanium may be heading in the same direction re dependencies which impacts deployment. I still haven't been able to get Titanium to install on OS X 10.5.8 / Perl 5.8.8 due to a circular dependency on a module loader plugin. gvim ##### CGI::Application community mailing list ################ ## ## ## To unsubscribe, or change your message delivery options, ## ## visit: http://www.erlbaum.net/mailman/listinfo/cgiapp ## ## ## ## Web archive: http://www.erlbaum.net/pipermail/cgiapp/ ## ## Wiki: http://cgiapp.erlbaum.net/ ## ## ## ################################################################ |
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Re: size of scripts and dependencies
by Stewart Heckenberg
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I don't care so much about dependencies but whether my code is easy to
write and maintain. For me that's about knowing where all the bodies are buried, and by that I mean keeping the number of moving parts to a minimum and not having a lot of scaffolding. That said, CGI::Application trumps most other frameworks because at its heart it's CGI and it's about using subs instead of epic if/else nests. I don't even care if CGI::Application could be smaller in terms of lines of code, because for me it's about being smaller conceptually, and nothing to do with lines of code or memory/disk footprint. Anyway, there's my in-depth analysis -- if anyone likes I can provide a really nice looking chart or something to back up my "data" :D 2009/9/19 P Kishor <punk.kish@...>: > Very good points Michael. My response to some of them below -- > > On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 8:47 AM, Michael Peters <mpeters@...> wrote: >> On 09/18/2009 09:33 AM, P Kishor wrote: >>> >>> But, now that we are done >>> comparing our overweight weight to a morbidly obese weight, how about >>> CGI::App on its own? To my completely uninformed mind, loading 40,000+ >>> lines to create a small web page sounds like a lot... and, that >>> doesn't even include the web server and the Perl interpreter! >> >> But that's not what you tested. You tested Titanium which is not CGI::App. >> It's an opinionated framework based on CGI::App and it's plugins. If you >> just want to create something that makes "small web pages" then just load >> CGI::App and it's dependencies. > > Actually, I did not test Titanium (I only invoked it as an example). I > tested my own application that is cobbled together with the various > bits and bobs of CGI::App and various plugins. > > >> >> Also, let's look at those numbers: >> >> DBI - 7824 >> CGI::Simple - 3900 >> >> That's 1/4 of all those lines just right there. And if you're going to use a >> database you need DBI. And if you're going to make a web app you need a CGI >> interface module (like CGI.pm or CGI::Simple) so I don't see a way to remove >> those. >> > > I guess that is what I was trying to get at... one of the things that > many Perl modules (and CGI::App as well) make a big deal about is how > simple scripts are once you use those modules... for example, the oft > quoted example of WebApp.pm and instance script being only a couple of > lines. Well, in reality, all the plumbing is still there, just under a > carpet. > > >> Also, you're counting just raw lines which means you're counting comments >> and whitespace (which penalizes modules which are well commented). I'm not >> saying your criticism isn't valid, I'm just saying that your data is too >> flawed to support that criticism :) > > > Yes, my data are too flawed, but the criticism is still valid. But, > instead of kvetching in the wind, I will actually try an experiment. I > will remove all the comments from the modules that I am using (call > them the "production versions," analogous to the packed/minified > Javascript packages floating around), and even try to squish them into > one file. I am curious as to what I end up with. > > Nevertheless, thanks for indulging with me in this argument. Your > points are very valid. > > >> >> -- >> Michael Peters >> Plus Three, LP >> >> ##### CGI::Application community mailing list ################ >> ## ## >> ## To unsubscribe, or change your message delivery options, ## >> ## visit: http://www.erlbaum.net/mailman/listinfo/cgiapp ## >> ## ## >> ## Web archive: http://www.erlbaum.net/pipermail/cgiapp/ ## >> ## Wiki: http://cgiapp.erlbaum.net/ ## >> ## ## >> ################################################################ >> >> > > > > -- > Puneet Kishor http://www.punkish.org > Carbon Model http://carbonmodel.org > Charter Member, Open Source Geospatial Foundation http://www.osgeo.org > Science Commons Fellow, http://sciencecommons.org/about/whoweare/kishor > Nelson Institute, UW-Madison http://www.nelson.wisc.edu > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Assertions are politics; backing up assertions with evidence is science > ======================================================================= > Sent from Madison, WI, United States > > ##### CGI::Application community mailing list ################ > ## ## > ## To unsubscribe, or change your message delivery options, ## > ## visit: http://www.erlbaum.net/mailman/listinfo/cgiapp ## > ## ## > ## Web archive: http://www.erlbaum.net/pipermail/cgiapp/ ## > ## Wiki: http://cgiapp.erlbaum.net/ ## > ## ## > ################################################################ > > ##### CGI::Application community mailing list ################ ## ## ## To unsubscribe, or change your message delivery options, ## ## visit: http://www.erlbaum.net/mailman/listinfo/cgiapp ## ## ## ## Web archive: http://www.erlbaum.net/pipermail/cgiapp/ ## ## Wiki: http://cgiapp.erlbaum.net/ ## ## ## ################################################################ |
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Re: size of scripts and dependencies
by Ron Savage
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Hi
See below. On Fri, 2009-09-18 at 09:14 -0500, P Kishor wrote: > Very good points Michael. My response to some of them below -- > > On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 8:47 AM, Michael Peters <mpeters@...> wrote: > > On 09/18/2009 09:33 AM, P Kishor wrote: > >> > >> But, now that we are done > >> comparing our overweight weight to a morbidly obese weight, how about > >> CGI::App on its own? To my completely uninformed mind, loading 40,000+ > >> lines to create a small web page sounds like a lot... and, that > >> doesn't even include the web server and the Perl interpreter! > > > > But that's not what you tested. You tested Titanium which is not CGI::App. > > It's an opinionated framework based on CGI::App and it's plugins. If you > > just want to create something that makes "small web pages" then just load > > CGI::App and it's dependencies. > > Actually, I did not test Titanium (I only invoked it as an example). I > tested my own application that is cobbled together with the various > bits and bobs of CGI::App and various plugins. > > > > > > Also, let's look at those numbers: > > > > DBI - 7824 > > CGI::Simple - 3900 > > > > That's 1/4 of all those lines just right there. And if you're going to use a > > database you need DBI. And if you're going to make a web app you need a CGI > > interface module (like CGI.pm or CGI::Simple) so I don't see a way to remove > > those. > > > > I guess that is what I was trying to get at... one of the things that > many Perl modules (and CGI::App as well) make a big deal about is how > simple scripts are once you use those modules... for example, the oft > quoted example of WebApp.pm and instance script being only a couple of > lines. Well, in reality, all the plumbing is still there, just under a > carpet. But it's /meant/ to be under the hood. That's the point of using CGI::App. You don't need to look under the hood, but you can if you wish. > > Also, you're counting just raw lines which means you're counting comments > > and whitespace (which penalizes modules which are well commented). I'm not > > saying your criticism isn't valid, I'm just saying that your data is too > > flawed to support that criticism :) > > > Yes, my data are too flawed, but the criticism is still valid. But, > instead of kvetching in the wind, I will actually try an experiment. I > will remove all the comments from the modules that I am using (call But you don't have to remove the comments. See for example the program below. Even thinking of removing comments implies your other comments are equally dubious. > them the "production versions," analogous to the packed/minified > Javascript packages floating around), and even try to squish them into > one file. I am curious as to what I end up with. > > Nevertheless, thanks for indulging with me in this argument. Your > points are very valid. > #!/usr/bin/perl # # Name: # count.code.pl. use strict; use warnings; use File::Find; my($count); # -------------------------------------------------------------- sub found { return if (-d $_ || ! -T $_); open(INX, $_) || die("Can't open($_): $!"); my(@line) = grep{! /^$/ && ! /^[#{}]/} map{s/^\s+//; s/\s+$//; $_;} <INX>; close(INX); $count += $#line + 1; } # -------------------------------------------------------------- $count = 0; my($dir) = shift || "Usage: $0 <dir.name>"; find(\&found, $dir); print "Line count: $count. \n"; > > > > > -- > > Michael Peters > > Plus Three, LP > > > > ##### CGI::Application community mailing list ################ > > ## ## > > ## To unsubscribe, or change your message delivery options, ## > > ## visit: http://www.erlbaum.net/mailman/listinfo/cgiapp ## > > ## ## > > ## Web archive: http://www.erlbaum.net/pipermail/cgiapp/ ## > > ## Wiki: http://cgiapp.erlbaum.net/ ## > > ## ## > > ################################################################ > > > > > > > > -- > Puneet Kishor http://www.punkish.org > Carbon Model http://carbonmodel.org > Charter Member, Open Source Geospatial Foundation http://www.osgeo.org > Science Commons Fellow, http://sciencecommons.org/about/whoweare/kishor > Nelson Institute, UW-Madison http://www.nelson.wisc.edu > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Assertions are politics; backing up assertions with evidence is science > ======================================================================= > Sent from Madison, WI, United States > > ##### CGI::Application community mailing list ################ > ## ## > ## To unsubscribe, or change your message delivery options, ## > ## visit: http://www.erlbaum.net/mailman/listinfo/cgiapp ## > ## ## > ## Web archive: http://www.erlbaum.net/pipermail/cgiapp/ ## > ## Wiki: http://cgiapp.erlbaum.net/ ## > ## ## > ################################################################ > > Ron Savage ron@... http://savage.net.au/index.html ##### CGI::Application community mailing list ################ ## ## ## To unsubscribe, or change your message delivery options, ## ## visit: http://www.erlbaum.net/mailman/listinfo/cgiapp ## ## ## ## Web archive: http://www.erlbaum.net/pipermail/cgiapp/ ## ## Wiki: http://cgiapp.erlbaum.net/ ## ## ## ################################################################ |
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Re: size of scripts and dependencies
by Jolly.Tall
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Ron Savage wrote:
[..] > #!/usr/bin/perl > # > # Name: > # count.code.pl. > > use strict; > use warnings; > > use File::Find; > > my($count); > > # -------------------------------------------------------------- > > sub found > { > return if (-d $_ || ! -T $_); > > open(INX, $_) || die("Can't open($_): $!"); > my(@line) = grep{! /^$/ && ! /^[#{}]/} map{s/^\s+//; s/\s+$//; $_;} > <INX>; > close(INX); > > $count += $#line + 1; > } > > # -------------------------------------------------------------- > > $count = 0; > my($dir) = shift || "Usage: $0 <dir.name>"; > > find(\&found, $dir); > > print "Line count: $count. \n"; Hi Ron, hey that's nice - I just used it to profile my current app. I modified it slightly to make it a bit less painful on the eyes (though I haven't managed to get rid of the line noise in the 'for' block yet) and introduced a files counter and an average lines/file function: #----------------------------------------- use strict; use warnings; use IO::All; use File::Find; my $lines = my $files = 0; my $dir = shift || "Usage: $0 <dir.name>"; find(\&found, $dir); sub found { return if (-d $_ || ! -T $_); $files++; for ( io($_)->slurp ) { s/^\s+|\s+$//; next if /^$|^[#{}]/; $lines++; } print "File count: $files\n"; print "Line count: $lines\n"; print "Average lines / file = " . int ($lines / $files) . "\n"; #----------------------------------------- I'm also playing with the 'next if' line to exempt single-line blocks eg { do_something() if $foo } which are currently skipped using ^[#{}] -- Richard Jones ##### CGI::Application community mailing list ################ ## ## ## To unsubscribe, or change your message delivery options, ## ## visit: http://www.erlbaum.net/mailman/listinfo/cgiapp ## ## ## ## Web archive: http://www.erlbaum.net/pipermail/cgiapp/ ## ## Wiki: http://cgiapp.erlbaum.net/ ## ## ## ################################################################ |
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Re: size of scripts and dependencies
by Ron Savage
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Hi Richard
On Sat, 2009-09-19 at 10:49 +0100, Richard Jones wrote: > Ron Savage wrote: [snip] > Hi Ron, hey that's nice - I just used it to profile my current app. I > modified it slightly to make it a bit less painful on the eyes (though I You can't be serious. My code may not be perfect, but it's clear what it's doing... -- Ron Savage ron@... http://savage.net.au/index.html ##### CGI::Application community mailing list ################ ## ## ## To unsubscribe, or change your message delivery options, ## ## visit: http://www.erlbaum.net/mailman/listinfo/cgiapp ## ## ## ## Web archive: http://www.erlbaum.net/pipermail/cgiapp/ ## ## Wiki: http://cgiapp.erlbaum.net/ ## ## ## ################################################################ |
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Re: size of scripts and dependencies
by Jolly.Tall
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Ron Savage wrote:
> Hi Richard > > On Sat, 2009-09-19 at 10:49 +0100, Richard Jones wrote: >> Ron Savage wrote: > [snip] >> Hi Ron, hey that's nice - I just used it to profile my current app. I >> modified it slightly to make it a bit less painful on the eyes (though I > > > You can't be serious. My code may not be perfect, but it's clear what > it's doing... Yep, though I didn't claim mine was either (just personal preferences at work here, and the temptation to hack to see what can be done), and the use of IO::All in place of manual file handling. And this also works for me: $lines += grep { s/^\s+|\s+$//; $_ !~ /^[{}]?$|^#/; } io($_)->chomp->slurp; though it's still horribly noisy in the grep block (can that be improved?), and doesn't exempt content between =begin & =cut blocks. -- Richard Jones ##### CGI::Application community mailing list ################ ## ## ## To unsubscribe, or change your message delivery options, ## ## visit: http://www.erlbaum.net/mailman/listinfo/cgiapp ## ## ## ## Web archive: http://www.erlbaum.net/pipermail/cgiapp/ ## ## Wiki: http://cgiapp.erlbaum.net/ ## ## ## ################################################################ |
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Re: size of scripts and dependencies
by Rhesa Rozendaal-2
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Richard Jones wrote:
> Ron Savage wrote: >> Hi Richard >> >> On Sat, 2009-09-19 at 10:49 +0100, Richard Jones wrote: >>> Ron Savage wrote: >> [snip] >>> Hi Ron, hey that's nice - I just used it to profile my current app. I >>> modified it slightly to make it a bit less painful on the eyes (though I >> >> You can't be serious. My code may not be perfect, but it's clear what >> it's doing... > > Yep, though I didn't claim mine was either (just personal preferences at > work here, and the temptation to hack to see what can be done), and the > use of IO::All in place of manual file handling. > > And this also works for me: > > $lines += grep { s/^\s+|\s+$//; $_ !~ /^[{}]?$|^#/; } io($_)->chomp->slurp; > > though it's still horribly noisy in the grep block (can that be > improved?), and doesn't exempt content between =begin & =cut blocks. An approach using PPI would produce more useful results. See http://search.cpan.org/perldoc?countperl for example. Here's the output for CGI/Application.pm: $ countperl /opt/perl/lib/site_perl/5.10.0/CGI/Application.pm Perl files found: 1 Counts ------ total code lines: 482 lines of non-sub code: 14 packages found: 1 subs/methods: 34 Subroutine/Method Size ---------------------- min: 1 lines max: 39 lines mean: 13.76 lines std. deviation: 9.97 median: 12.00 McCabe Complexity ----------------- Code not in any subroutine:: min: 1 max 1 mean: 1.00 std. deviation: 0.00 median: 1.00 Subroutines/Methods: min: 1 max: 16 mean: 4.53 std. deviation: 4.20 median: 3.50 [Tab-delimited list of subroutines omitted] As you can see, CGI::Application is in good shape with only 482 lines of actual code, 34 subs or methods, and a good size and complexity per method. rhesa ##### CGI::Application community mailing list ################ ## ## ## To unsubscribe, or change your message delivery options, ## ## visit: http://www.erlbaum.net/mailman/listinfo/cgiapp ## ## ## ## Web archive: http://www.erlbaum.net/pipermail/cgiapp/ ## ## Wiki: http://cgiapp.erlbaum.net/ ## ## ## ################################################################ |
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Re: size of scripts and dependencies
by P Kishor-3
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On Sat, Sep 19, 2009 at 9:15 AM, Rhesa Rozendaal <perl@...> wrote:
> Richard Jones wrote: >> >> Ron Savage wrote: >>> >>> Hi Richard >>> >>> On Sat, 2009-09-19 at 10:49 +0100, Richard Jones wrote: >>>> >>>> Ron Savage wrote: >>> >>> [snip] >>>> >>>> Hi Ron, hey that's nice - I just used it to profile my current app. I >>>> modified it slightly to make it a bit less painful on the eyes (though I >>> >>> You can't be serious. My code may not be perfect, but it's clear what >>> it's doing... >> >> Yep, though I didn't claim mine was either (just personal preferences at >> work here, and the temptation to hack to see what can be done), and the use >> of IO::All in place of manual file handling. >> >> And this also works for me: >> >> $lines += grep { s/^\s+|\s+$//; $_ !~ /^[{}]?$|^#/; } >> io($_)->chomp->slurp; >> >> though it's still horribly noisy in the grep block (can that be >> improved?), and doesn't exempt content between =begin & =cut blocks. > > > An approach using PPI would produce more useful results. See > http://search.cpan.org/perldoc?countperl for example. > > Here's the output for CGI/Application.pm: > > > $ countperl /opt/perl/lib/site_perl/5.10.0/CGI/Application.pm > > Perl files found: 1 > > Counts > ------ > total code lines: 482 > lines of non-sub code: 14 > packages found: 1 > subs/methods: 34 > > Subroutine/Method Size > ---------------------- > min: 1 lines > max: 39 lines > mean: 13.76 lines > std. deviation: 9.97 > median: 12.00 > > McCabe Complexity > ----------------- > Code not in any subroutine:: > min: 1 > max 1 > mean: 1.00 > std. deviation: 0.00 > median: 1.00 > > Subroutines/Methods: > min: 1 > max: 16 > mean: 4.53 > std. deviation: 4.20 > median: 3.50 > > [Tab-delimited list of subroutines omitted] > > As you can see, CGI::Application is in good shape with only 482 lines of > actual code, 34 subs or methods, and a good size and complexity per method. > yes, but... I do realize that the perl interpreter likely tosses the comments before compiling the code, but isn't there a penalty in opening a large file, even if most of it is comments? A thousand line file with 999 lines of comments and one line of code will still need to be parsed, and it wouldn't matter where in the file the code is, beginning or end. Perl will have to go through the entire file to determine what is what. Now, of course, with 999 lines it probably makes a difference of a few milliseconds, or not even that, but with 40,000 lines it might be a different story. Now, keep in mind, it does seem that CGI::App and its various parts are a lot less than competing frameworks, but 40K lines scattered over 40-50 odd files means that all those 40-50 files have to be opened up on every single hit, parsed, and compiled. A few extra milliseconds here and there would add up over many concurrent hits. Of course, that is a perfect condition when it makes sense to introduce a persistent environment such as FastCGI or mod_perl, but they have other complexities in installation and implementation. Actually, truth be told, I really don't even have much against the number of lines. It is in the partially perceived and partially real difficulty in installing a multitude of interdependent modules just to get what seems like a simple thing but in reality is quite a complicated thing... a "simple" db driven website. I use HTML::Template, so I don't even use CGI::Simple (let alone CGI) for anything other than $foo = $cgi->param('foo') kind of stuff. Any move toward making a one click, transparent installation that brings together templating, db (sqlite, most obviously) and a persistent environment and a simple but robust web server would likely gather a lot of brainshare, much like Ruby on Rails has. A transportable installation would also make it possible for us to make applications that can simply be copied to a new computer and run. > rhesa > -- Puneet Kishor http://www.punkish.org Carbon Model http://carbonmodel.org Charter Member, Open Source Geospatial Foundation http://www.osgeo.org Science Commons Fellow, http://sciencecommons.org/about/whoweare/kishor Nelson Institute, UW-Madison http://www.nelson.wisc.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Assertions are politics; backing up assertions with evidence is science ======================================================================= Sent from Madison, WI, United States ##### CGI::Application community mailing list ################ ## ## ## To unsubscribe, or change your message delivery options, ## ## visit: http://www.erlbaum.net/mailman/listinfo/cgiapp ## ## ## ## Web archive: http://www.erlbaum.net/pipermail/cgiapp/ ## ## Wiki: http://cgiapp.erlbaum.net/ ## ## ## ################################################################ |
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Re: size of scripts and dependencies
by Ron Savage
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Hi Rhesa
On Sat, 2009-09-19 at 16:15 +0200, Rhesa Rozendaal wrote: > An approach using PPI would produce more useful results. See > http://search.cpan.org/perldoc?countperl for example. Very nice! This gives me an incentive to install PPI... -- Ron Savage ron@... http://savage.net.au/index.html ##### CGI::Application community mailing list ################ ## ## ## To unsubscribe, or change your message delivery options, ## ## visit: http://www.erlbaum.net/mailman/listinfo/cgiapp ## ## ## ## Web archive: http://www.erlbaum.net/pipermail/cgiapp/ ## ## Wiki: http://cgiapp.erlbaum.net/ ## ## ## ################################################################ |
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Re: size of scripts and dependencies
by Ron Savage
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Hi Richard
On Sat, 2009-09-19 at 13:11 +0100, Richard Jones wrote: > Yep, though I didn't claim mine was either (just personal preferences at > work here, and the temptation to hack to see what can be done), and the > use of IO::All in place of manual file handling. Nothing wrong with personal preferences, especially if they're mine :-)). > And this also works for me: > > $lines += grep { s/^\s+|\s+$//; $_ !~ /^[{}]?$|^#/; } io($_)->chomp->slurp; Errr. What happens with a line which has /both/ leading and trailing spaces? -- Ron Savage ron@... http://savage.net.au/index.html ##### CGI::Application community mailing list ################ ## ## ## To unsubscribe, or change your message delivery options, ## ## visit: http://www.erlbaum.net/mailman/listinfo/cgiapp ## ## ## ## Web archive: http://www.erlbaum.net/pipermail/cgiapp/ ## ## Wiki: http://cgiapp.erlbaum.net/ ## ## ## ################################################################ |
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Re: size of scripts and dependencies
by Ron Savage
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Hi Rhesa
On Sat, 2009-09-19 at 16:15 +0200, Rhesa Rozendaal wrote: > As you can see, CGI::Application is in good shape with only 482 lines of > actual code, 34 subs or methods, and a good size and complexity per method. That's a great argument for shipping the POD in a separate file from the *.pm. -- Ron Savage ron@... http://savage.net.au/index.html ##### CGI::Application community mailing list ################ ## ## ## To unsubscribe, or change your message delivery options, ## ## visit: http://www.erlbaum.net/mailman/listinfo/cgiapp ## ## ## ## Web archive: http://www.erlbaum.net/pipermail/cgiapp/ ## ## Wiki: http://cgiapp.erlbaum.net/ ## ## ## ################################################################ |
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Re: size of scripts and dependencies
by Michael Peters
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On 09/19/2009 07:10 PM, Ron Savage wrote:
> That's a great argument for shipping the POD in a separate file from the > *.pm. For me the benefit of having the documentation near the code it documents (which means it has a higher chance of staying up-to-date) far outweighs the micro (or pico) seconds I'll save by the interpreter skipping my comments when it's compiling. I'm still waiting for someone in this thread that is concerned with these issues to actually do a benchmark. Also, if you run a persistant environment (and I still don't understand why everyone doesn't do that) it's all moot anyway. -- Michael Peters Plus Three, LP ##### CGI::Application community mailing list ################ ## ## ## To unsubscribe, or change your message delivery options, ## ## visit: http://www.erlbaum.net/mailman/listinfo/cgiapp ## ## ## ## Web archive: http://www.erlbaum.net/pipermail/cgiapp/ ## ## Wiki: http://cgiapp.erlbaum.net/ ## ## ## ################################################################ |
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Re: size of scripts and dependencies
by P Kishor-3
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On Sat, Sep 19, 2009 at 7:35 PM, Michael Peters <mpeters@...> wrote:
> On 09/19/2009 07:10 PM, Ron Savage wrote: > >> That's a great argument for shipping the POD in a separate file from the >> *.pm. > > For me the benefit of having the documentation near the code it documents > (which means it has a higher chance of staying up-to-date) far outweighs the > micro (or pico) seconds I'll save by the interpreter skipping my comments > when it's compiling. I'm still waiting for someone in this thread that is > concerned with these issues to actually do a benchmark. > > Also, if you run a persistant environment (and I still don't understand why > everyone doesn't do that) it's all moot anyway. Because, Michael, it is difficult. It is not simply out of the box and click and run. To run a persistent environment, I have to install and configure Apache and mod_perl or FastCGI. I develop on my laptop, then, when everything is working, I set up the application on a test server, then when everything is checked by the rest of the team and tested, we move it to a production server. That means, I have to set up not one but three identical environments. I have wasted countless hours trying to make mod_perl compile on a server I have. It just is too difficult. Of course, this brings me back to the original intent behind this thread... make the persistent environment, the database, the templating engine, etc. a single click install, preferably a single file instead of 40 different files, and I probably wouldn't even care that it was 40K lines. I wouldn't even know... it is a matter of perception, I guess. Call my argument silly and stupid, but all these bits and bobs and moving parts are scary, and folks looking over my shoulder say... do we really need all this just to make a web page? Of course we do, but do we have to show them (and ourselves) that? By the way, I agree with you wholeheartedly that the documentation should be *with* the code. But, perhaps, like I mentioned in an earlier email, we could have a "production" version of the code that takes out all the comments, smushes all the code in a single file and minifies it (aka "packs" it) a la Javascript minification... at least for the tried and tested modules. Actually, I see a few drawbacks in my own suggestion, but I put it out as a point of discussion. > > -- > Michael Peters > Plus Three, LP > -- Puneet Kishor http://www.punkish.org Carbon Model http://carbonmodel.org Charter Member, Open Source Geospatial Foundation http://www.osgeo.org Science Commons Fellow, http://sciencecommons.org/about/whoweare/kishor Nelson Institute, UW-Madison http://www.nelson.wisc.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Assertions are politics; backing up assertions with evidence is science ======================================================================= Sent from Madison, WI, United States ##### CGI::Application community mailing list ################ ## ## ## To unsubscribe, or change your message delivery options, ## ## visit: http://www.erlbaum.net/mailman/listinfo/cgiapp ## ## ## ## Web archive: http://www.erlbaum.net/pipermail/cgiapp/ ## ## Wiki: http://cgiapp.erlbaum.net/ ## ## ## ################################################################ |
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Re: size of scripts and dependencies
by CosmicPerl
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P Kishor wrote:
> Of course, this brings me back to the original intent behind this > thread... make the persistent environment, the database, the > templating engine, etc. a single click install...[cut] > By the way, I agree with you wholeheartedly that the documentation > should be *with* the code. But, perhaps, like I mentioned in an > earlier email, we could have a "production" version of the code that > takes out all the comments, smushes all the code in a single file and > minifies it (aka "packs" it) a la Javascript minification... at least > for the tried and tested modules. Actually, I see a few drawbacks in > my own suggestion, but I put it out as a point of discussion. > I have a currently shelved project that aims to accomplish much of this kind of thing. I call it the Perl scriptable install, one day soon I'll hopefully get chance to write it :/ Lyle ##### CGI::Application community mailing list ################ ## ## ## To unsubscribe, or change your message delivery options, ## ## visit: http://www.erlbaum.net/mailman/listinfo/cgiapp ## ## ## ## Web archive: http://www.erlbaum.net/pipermail/cgiapp/ ## ## Wiki: http://cgiapp.erlbaum.net/ ## ## ## ################################################################ |
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