slurs and ties

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Hi Erik,
> Attached a jpg snipped of score parts I want to reproduce with  
> lilypond. (Took me 30 secs to make using Sibelius)
>
> But after a day of trying I can’t figure it out.
>
Sounds to me like you don't know about \tieWaitForNote.
Although 30 seconds wouldn't be enough, I think I could do it in  
about 1:30...  ;)

Best regards,
Kieren.

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Hi Erik,

> Sounds to me like you don't know about \tieWaitForNote.
> Although 30 seconds wouldn't be enough, I think I could do it in  
> about 1:30...  ;)

Okay, it took 1:45... most of that was spent perfecting the code  
indentation!  ;)
Here's a hint:

\version "2.13.6"
\include "english.ly"

tieVoice = {
   \voiceThree
   \shiftOff
   \override Voice.NoteColumn #'ignore-collision = ##t
   \set tieWaitForNote = ##t
   \hideNotes
}

tieMusic = \relative c'' {
   \key d \major
   \time 3/4
   <a d>4 <<
       { \voiceOne d,8 fs a d }
       \new Voice { \voiceTwo d,4 <d fs> }
       \new Voice { \tieVoice d8 _~ fs _~ <d fs>4 }
     >> \oneVoice
}

\score { \tieMusic }

Hope this helps!
Kieren.


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Well thanks again Kieren,

I still wouldn't have figured that out on my own.

Erik



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Right, or rather not so right (Me being wrong)

I've been trying to implement what you just told me. Trying to create the
second bar in the jpg I posted. I stumbled and fell. Bruised knees and
bruised ego. Here is the final version that did not have the ties I need.
Have been at it for an hour or so. Rather frustrating \rantON I WANT TO
CREATE NICE SCORES!!! \rantOff

tieVoice = {
   \voiceThree
   \shiftOff
   \override Voice.NoteColumn #'ignore-collision = ##t
   \set tieWaitForNote = ##t
   \hideNotes
}

   << { \voiceOne <a d>8[ fis a d fis e] }
     \new Voice { \voiceTwo fis,8[ fis] fis4 <fis a> }
     \new Voice { \tieVoice <fis a>4 _~ d'8 _~ <fis a>4 }
   >> \oneVoice

}

What part did I not understand?

Thanks, Erik



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On 11/6/09 12:45 PM, "Erik Appeldoorn" <ursus.kirk@...> wrote:

> Right, or rather not so right (Me being wrong)
>
> I've been trying to implement what you just told me. Trying to create the
> second bar in the jpg I posted. I stumbled and fell. Bruised knees and
> bruised ego. Here is the final version that did not have the ties I need.
> Have been at it for an hour or so. Rather frustrating \rantON I WANT TO
> CREATE NICE SCORES!!! \rantOff
>
> What part did I not understand?

I think you didn't understand that the purpose of the tieVoice voice was to
have only the ties that span different voices.

You were close, but not quite there.  If it's any consolation, it took me
about 5 minutes to get things working right for you.

And I remember when I started with LilyPond, none of this stuff made sense.
But I promise that if you hang in there, and try to understand *why* these
things work, it will get better.

Here's my code:

\version "2.13.7"
tieVoice = {
   \voiceThree
   \shiftOff
   \override Voice.NoteColumn #'ignore-collision = ##t
   \set tieWaitForNote = ##t
   \hideNotes
}

\new Staff {
  \relative c'' {
   \key g \major
 << { \voiceOne <a d>8[ fis a d fis e] }
   \new Voice { \voiceTwo fis,8[ fis] fis4 <fis a> }
   \new Voice { \tieVoice a4 <fis a>4_~ <fis a>4 }
 >> \oneVoice
  }
}

HTH,

Carl



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Hi Erik,

> I WANT TO CREATE NICE SCORES!!!

Well, aren't you glad you're learning Lilypond, then!?  ;)

Here's a "final" version:

\version "2.13.7"
\include "english.ly"

tieVoice = {
   \shiftOff
   \override Voice.NoteColumn #'ignore-collision = ##t
   \set tieWaitForNote = ##t
   \hideNotes
}

tieMusic = \relative c'' {
   \key d \major
   \time 3/4
   <a d>4 <<
       { \voiceOne d,8 fs a d }
       \new Voice { \voiceTwo d,4 <d fs> }
       \new Voice { \tieVoice d8 _~ fs _~ <d fs>4 }
     >> \oneVoice   |
   R4*3   |
   << { \voiceOne <a' d>8[ fs a d fs e] }
     \new Voice { \voiceTwo fs,8[ fs] fs4 <fs a> }
     \new Voice { \tieVoice a4 <fs a>4 _~ <fs a>4 }
   >> \oneVoice   |
}

\score { \tieMusic }

In my opinion, the output of this snippet is unquestionably and  
markedly superior to the Sibelius snippet: compare the time  
signature, key signature, spacing, slurs, and note shape.

As you learn the techniques and get more comfortable with the syntax,  
your hour-(or-more)-of-head-banging-and-frustration *will* give way  
to five-minutes-(or-less)-of-happy-coding-and-satisfaction.
Hang in there!

Best regards,
Kieren.


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Erik Appeldoorn wrote: Here's my solution (took about 15 minutes)

%==============================
\version "2.13.7"

\relative c' {
\time 3/4
\key d \major
\mergeDifferentlyHeadedOn
<< {

s4 d8 fis a d |
R1*3/4 |
<d a>8 fis, a d fis e |
} \\ {
<d a>4 d, ~ d |
s2. |
fis8 fis fis4 ~ fis |
} \\ { \tieDown
\override NoteColumn #'ignore-collision = ##t
s4. \once \override Stem #'flag-style = #'no-flag fis8 ~ \stemDown fis4 |
s2. |
s4 ]\stemUp a ~ \stemDown a |
} >>
}
%==============================

Nick


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Thanks Nick,

Interesting to see how your solution differs from the one Kieren and Carl
offered. More than one way to reach the goal. Nice.

Erik



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Kieren,

Trying to understand. As I see it you create the two voices as if nothing
special was needed. Then create a third voice, with identical notes as the
second voice. These remain hidden, but the ties are visible.

Am I correct?

Erik




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"Erik Appeldoorn" <ursus.kirk@...> writes:

> Thanks Nick,
>
> Interesting to see how your solution differs from the one Kieren and Carl
> offered. More than one way to reach the goal. Nice.

Disagree.  Seems rather like more than one trick to reach the goal.
From a user interface perspective, I find both solutions distastefully
tricky.

Now there is something to be said against tieing into a different voice
like that musically: it messes up the audible voice situation.  Unless
dictated by the instrument (and then there is little necessity to write
the tie explicitly), it is cleaner to articulate the note separately.

When playing accordion and doing something like

<e g>8( <c e>)

I have to take pains to explicitly break off the e from the first note a
slight bit earlier so that the voice/note relation does not get messed
up.

The notation manual says something like

    _Using ties with arpeggios_

       Ties are sometimes used to write out arpeggios.  In this case, two
    tied notes need not be consecutive.  This can be achieved by setting the
    `tieWaitForNote' property to `#t'.  The same feature is also useful,
    for example, to tie a tremolo to a chord, but in principle, it can also
    be used for ordinary consecutive notes.

         \relative c' {
           \set tieWaitForNote = ##t
           \grace { c16[ ~ e ~ g] ~ } <c, e g>2
           \repeat tremolo 8 { c32 ~ c' ~ } <c c,>1
           e8 ~ c ~ a ~ f ~ <e' c a f>2
           \tieUp
           c8 ~ a
           \tieDown
           \tieDotted
           g8 ~ c g2
         }

Personally, I think that "tieWaitForNote" should be the default
behavior.  There is nothing whatsoever gained that I can see by dropping
explicit ties.  Or even tieWaitForNoteOrEndRepeatOrEndAlternative.

And a wrong tie is more noticeable if it produces output.  It is a
reasonable help to emit a warning for possibly unintended non-matching
ties, but probably it might be nice if adding another tie will silence
the warning, like g8 ~~ c g2.

That feels nicer than a global override like tieWaitForNote, even if you
may use \once \override instead.

Feature request for tracker?

--
David Kastrup



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Hi Erik,

> As I see it you create the two voices as if nothing special was  
> needed.
> Then create a third voice, with identical notes as the second voice.
> These remain hidden, but the ties are visible.
> Am I correct?

Essentially, with one [very small] correction: the third Voice  
context doesn't usually/always have "identical notes as the second  
voice"... For example, in the first bar of your snippet, we have
       \new Voice { \voiceTwo d,4 <d fs> }
       \new Voice { \tieVoice d8 _~ fs _~ <d fs>4 }
which clearly aren't "identical notes".

The problem is ties that [visually] cross Voice contexts — Lilypond  
can't [yet?] handle that. So my solution is
    1. If a tie [visually] joins two notes within the same Voice  
context, engrave as normal.
    2. If a tie [visually] joins two notes across different Voice  
contexts, create a third Voice context containing [invisible copies  
of] the notes that require joining, and tie them instead.

The other tweaks (e.g., \shiftOff) are there to make sure that the  
regular note collision algorithms don't kick in and misalign/offset  
the "tie Voice elements" (i.e., the ties themselves, plus the hidden  
notes).

Makes sense?
Kieren.

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David,

If the composer has written them it is not to me to leave them out. Sensical
or not-so-sensical.

As I'm restoring an old manuscript I feel I'm bound to what I find. It is
difficult enough to recreate the score with only parts in different
handwriting available.

But I have to agree on the tricky part. All the extra's I need to recreate
the score makes my scores unyealding and time-consuming to create.

Erik

 
> Now there is something to be said against tieing into a different voice
> like that musically: it messes up the audible voice situation.  Unless
> dictated by the instrument (and then there is little necessity to write
> the tie explicitly), it is cleaner to articulate the note separately.
>




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