some GUI ideas: multilayer tiff?

[Luís Henrique Camargo Quiroz]

    Hi,
    I forgot to ask, some days ago, when the ideas about the GUI are
circulating: older Hugins have the option to create a multilayer TIFF
while stitching, and newer versions don´t. I think it was a useful option.
    Also, the stitch.txt file in the hugin\doc folder does not mention a
TIFF_multilayer output format anymore, as the older nona.txt did. the
last time I created a multilayer tiff - months ago - I had to manually
edit the pto file to change this missing option.

    thanks,

    Luís Henrique

--
Luis Henrique Camargo Quiroz, M.Sc. - Internal Combustion Engines Group
IPT - Sao Paulo State Technological Researches Institute
phone: [phone]  fax: [phone]  www.ipt.br  BRAZIL
http://luishcq.tripod.com - http://www.christusrex.org/www2/cantgreg



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[Bruno Postle]

On Fri 03-Jul-2009 at 09:37 -0300, Luís Henrique Camargo Quiroz wrote:
>
> I forgot to ask, some days ago, when the ideas about the GUI are
> circulating: older Hugins have the option to create a multilayer TIFF
> while stitching, and newer versions don´t. I think it was a useful option.
> Also, the stitch.txt file in the hugin\doc folder does not mention a
> TIFF_multilayer output format anymore, as the older nona.txt did. the
> last time I created a multilayer tiff - months ago - I had to manually
> edit the pto file to change this missing option.

You can still do it on the command-line without editing like so:

    nona -o muultilayer.tif -m TIFF_multilayer project.pto

..or in hugin select 'remapped images' in the Stitcher tab and join
these together with tiffcp:

    tiffcp project0000.tif project0001.tif multilayer.tif

--
Bruno

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[cspiel]

On Jul 3, 2:37 pm, Luís Henrique Camargo Quiroz <luis...@...>
wrote:
>     I forgot to ask, some days ago, when the ideas about the GUI are
> circulating: older Hugins have the option to create a multilayer TIFF
> while stitching, and newer versions don´t. I think it was a useful option.

        I missed Hugin's multilayer TIFF option
too when I had to construct test cases for
Enblend.  tiffcp(1) did the job, though.

It almost looks like a Catch 22 to me: Some time
ago Hugin let us produce multilayer TIFFs, but
Enblend did not understand them.  Now as the
"staging" versions of Enblend and Enfuse
consider all directories of a TIFF file
        http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~cspiel/enblend/staging/revision/329
Hugin does not offer this format variation
anymore.

/Chris

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[Bruno Postle]

On Thu 16-Jul-2009 at 22:20 -0700, cspiel wrote:
>
> I missed Hugin's multilayer TIFF option too when I had to
> construct test cases for Enblend.  tiffcp(1) did the job, though.

The tiffcp commands already exist as rules in the
Makefile.equirect.mk file, it would be simple to transfer these
directly to all the hugin .pto.mk Makefiles.

The only problem is the already convoluted GUI in the hugin Stitcher
tab, how do we make this an option that users will be able to find?

--
Bruno

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[Bart van Andel]

> The only problem is the already convoluted GUI in the hugin Stitcher
> tab, how do we make this an option that users will be able to find?

I'd suggest simply as a "Normal Output" option, which is now populated
with TIFF/JPG/PNG.
Or do you mean you want both TIFF/JPG/PNG output *and* a multi-layered
TIFF at the same time, in a single run, Bruno?

--
Bart
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[J. Schneider-2]

>> The only problem is the already convoluted GUI in the hugin Stitcher
>> tab, how do we make this an option that users will be able to find?
>
> I'd suggest simply as a "Normal Output" option, which is now populated
> with TIFF/JPG/PNG.
> Or do you mean you want both TIFF/JPG/PNG output *and* a multi-layered
> TIFF at the same time, in a single run, Bruno?

It might happen that someone wants this. One workaround should be to
send several stitch jobs to the batch stitcher with different output
options - but this doesn't work because (as far as I understand) the
option is saved in the pto file and the stitcher is handed only a
reference to this file. So at stitching time it reads the project file
and finds the option last set.
I have wished it to be different several times already. E.g. whe I
wanted to try different projections.

regards
Joachim

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[Bruno Postle]

On Sat 18-Jul-2009 at 20:01 +0200, J. Schneider wrote:

>
>> Or do you mean you want both TIFF/JPG/PNG output *and* a multi-layered
>> TIFF at the same time, in a single run, Bruno?
>
>It might happen that someone wants this. One workaround should be to
>send several stitch jobs to the batch stitcher with different output
>options - but this doesn't work because (as far as I understand) the
>option is saved in the pto file and the stitcher is handed only a
>reference to this file. So at stitching time it reads the project file
>and finds the option last set.

What happens is that a temporary version of the project is created
when stitching starts, so you can 'stitch now', change the project
and 'stitch now' again and get two different results as expected.

The Batch Processor will start with whatever version of the project
file exists when that task is processed.  So if you want different
versions of the output, you need to change the filename each time.

--
Bruno

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[Bruno Postle]

On Sat 18-Jul-2009 at 04:51 -0700, Bart van Andel wrote:
>
>> The only problem is the already convoluted GUI in the hugin Stitcher
>> tab, how do we make this an option that users will be able to find?
>
>I'd suggest simply as a "Normal Output" option, which is now populated
>with TIFF/JPG/PNG.
>Or do you mean you want both TIFF/JPG/PNG output *and* a multi-layered
>TIFF at the same time, in a single run, Bruno?

Yes, the way to create multilayer output with tiffcp is to include
both the final 'Blended panorama' and all the intermediate 'Remapped
images' in one file:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/36383814@N00/3548812059/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/36383814@N00/3548812069/

--
Bruno

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[Bart van Andel]

On 19 jul, 02:35, Bruno Postle <br...@...> wrote:

> On Sat 18-Jul-2009 at 04:51 -0700, Bart van Andel wrote:
>
> >I'd suggest simply as a "Normal Output" option, which is now populated
> >with TIFF/JPG/PNG.
> >Or do you mean you want both TIFF/JPG/PNG output *and* a multi-layered
> >TIFF at the same time, in a single run, Bruno?
>
> Yes, the way to create multilayer output with tiffcp is to include
> both the final 'Blended panorama' and all the intermediate 'Remapped
> images' in one file:

What I actually meant is: do you want TWO distinct output files
instead of ONE? Whether it is done using tiffcp or not should not make
any difference for the answer to this question. If you only want 1
output file (for instance, a JPG file, *or* a multi-layered TIFF with
the blended panorama in one layer and the remapped images in other
layers), we can just (re-)add multi-layered TIFF as an option for the
"Normal Output" drop down. But if you want both the JPG *and* the
multi-layered TIFF generated at the same time, this won't work of
course.

That is, unless the drop-down list is modified to contain a list with
check-boxes, so you can actually select multiple output formats. An
extended version of this approach could include different output
settings at the same time, so a single PTO file could generate both a
full-size multi-layered TIFF and a downscaled JPG. Hmm, I'm dreaming,
maybe I should go asleep :)

--
Bart
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[J. Schneider-2]

> On Sat 18-Jul-2009 at 20:01 +0200, J. Schneider wrote:
>>> Or do you mean you want both TIFF/JPG/PNG output *and* a multi-layered
>>> TIFF at the same time, in a single run, Bruno?
>> It might happen that someone wants this. One workaround should be to
>> send several stitch jobs to the batch stitcher with different output
>> options - but this doesn't work because (as far as I understand) the
>> option is saved in the pto file and the stitcher is handed only a
>> reference to this file. So at stitching time it reads the project file
>> and finds the option last set.
>
> What happens is that a temporary version of the project is created
> when stitching starts, so you can 'stitch now', change the project
> and 'stitch now' again and get two different results as expected.

That's what I did before there was a batch processor.

> The Batch Processor will start with whatever version of the project
> file exists when that task is processed.  So if you want different
> versions of the output, you need to change the filename each time.
That's what I do now after I realized how hugin and PTBatcher work
together. I just think it would be more intuitive and more user friendly
if it worked principally like the "stitch now" version. First because
then the function would be basically the same, just with a delay; and
second because it saves the user some clicks.

regards
Joachim

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[J. Schneider-2]

> That is, unless the drop-down list is modified to contain a list with
> check-boxes, so you can actually select multiple output formats. An
> extended version of this approach could include different output
> settings at the same time, so a single PTO file could generate both a
> full-size multi-layered TIFF and a downscaled JPG. Hmm, I'm dreaming,
> maybe I should go asleep :)

Well, sometimes dreaming awake helps advance software development.
I think the checkbox version would be quite logical. If you can select
enblend *and* enfuse, why shouldn't you be able to select one format
*and* another?

By the way my (even more dream-like) suggestion I made some time ago
(http://groups.google.com/group/hugin-ptx/browse_thread/thread/1cfa0f409abf1787; 
http://www.joachimschneider.info/hugin_workflow_assembly.gif) would make
all combinations of simultaneous output possible.

regards
Joachim

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[Bart van Andel]

> By the way my (even more dream-like) suggestion I made some time ago
> (http://groups.google.com/group/hugin-ptx/browse_thread/thread/1cfa0f4...http://www.joachimschneider.info/hugin_workflow_assembly.gif) would make
> all combinations of simultaneous output possible.

I do like your alternative approach, which I guess can be very handy
for an advanced user. For an "average" user however I think this
process will be too cumbersome. Of course if your idea is implemented,
the average user can just be presented with a "druid preset" of
actions, which can work exactly the same as what the current workflow
does.

And I agree on the dreaming part :)

--
Bart
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[Yuval Levy-6]

Bruno Postle wrote:
> The only problem is the already convoluted GUI in the hugin Stitcher
> tab, how do we make this an option that users will be able to find?

the Hugin stitcher tab can use a complete make up.

at the moment it can output only one projection with one specific view
and crop at a time. there are cases where I wished it would be more -
e.g. six different outputs for the six cubefaces. And of course I'd like
them to be layered TIFF (well, layered PSD to be really precised).

I would replace that tab with a table. The columns in the table are:

* ID/selector
* projection
* view (yaw/pitch/roll)
* FoV (HFOV/VFOV)
* Canvas Size (w/h)
* Crop (left/top/right/bottom)
* Output (a drop down)
* Remapper with button to pop up options
* Blender with button to pop up options
* File format (drop down of TIFF/MULTI-LAYER-TIFF/JPG/PNG/EXR and my
wish PSD) - the compression options for TIFF can be set in the
preferences as they tend not to change from project to project.

clicking on the ID/selector will make the specific view visible in the
panorama preview

the table's line would then match against lines in PTBatcher - the GUI
would feed PTBatcher transparently to the user. No more stitch now -
everything would go through the processor.

things could be further expanded, e.g. by selecting the input images
that go into each line separately.

a button to duplicate the currently selected line will make it easy to
set up additional outputs.


Yuv

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[Bruno Postle]

On Sun 19-Jul-2009 at 12:22 -0400, Yuval Levy wrote:
>
>the Hugin stitcher tab can use a complete make up.
>
>at the moment it can output only one projection with one specific view
>and crop at a time. there are cases where I wished it would be more -
>e.g. six different outputs for the six cubefaces. And of course I'd like
>them to be layered TIFF (well, layered PSD to be really precised).
>
>I would replace that tab with a table. The columns in the table are:

Could you make a mockup?  This is something we really need to get
right, but it needs to be less complex than it is now.

Regardless, if I have time soon I'm going to change the labels on the
current interface to be more consistent as per this earlier email:

> > We use a lot of confusing phrases in hugin: normal output, blended
> > panorama, exposure blending, etc...
> >
> > So maybe we should pick a small number of phrases and use them
> > consistently:
> >
> > - Seam blending (enblend)
> > - Exposure fusing (enfuse)
> > - Focus stacking (enfuse)
> > - HDR merging

--
Bruno

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[Bruno Postle]

On Sat 18-Jul-2009 at 18:32 -0700, Bart van Andel wrote:

>
>What I actually meant is: do you want TWO distinct output files
>instead of ONE? Whether it is done using tiffcp or not should not make
>any difference for the answer to this question. If you only want 1
>output file (for instance, a JPG file, *or* a multi-layered TIFF with
>the blended panorama in one layer and the remapped images in other
>layers), we can just (re-)add multi-layered TIFF as an option for the
>"Normal Output" drop down. But if you want both the JPG *and* the
>multi-layered TIFF generated at the same time, this won't work of
>course.

If you want a lower quality JPEG version as well as a full quality
TIFF, then running the stitch twice doesn't make sense.  The JPEG
should be derived from the high quality stitch just as the
multilayer file should be derived from the intermediate remapped
images - The hugin Makefile system can be made to do this.

--
Bruno

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[Bart van Andel]

On 20 jul, 01:28, Bruno Postle <br...@...> wrote:
> If you want a lower quality JPEG version as well as a full quality
> TIFF, then running the stitch twice doesn't make sense.  The JPEG
> should be derived from the high quality stitch just as the
> multilayer file should be derived from the intermediate remapped
> images - The hugin Makefile system can be made to do this.

I agree that the intermediate files *and* the stitched panorama need
only be generated once when it's the same output panorama. But the
ability to generate both a (multi-layer) TIFF and a (possibly
downsized) JPG in a single run from the GUI might add value to Hugin,
as an "all-in-one" tool.

In the end, perhaps with Joachim's workflow idea in mind, we could
also append output modules which generate accompanying character based
output from a template file, like HTML, PHP, VRML or whatever you can
think of. Like so: input: <img1> <img2> <...> <img_n>, output:
complete web page displaying a thumbnail which turns into an
interactive panorama when clicked.

Oh-oh, I'm dreaming again :) We need a sketch-board to spawn our
creative ideas instead of just these text-based threads!

--
Bart
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