status usb2 for sound

[Hartmut Noack]

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Hello,

USB1 works OK with ALSA but what is the status for USB*2*-Soundcards?

I cannot find any useful info on http://www.alsa-project.org/ . So what
are you experiences? Anybody out there working on drivers for stuff like
this:

http://de.m-audio.com/products/de_de/FastTrackUltra.html

..that is not class-compliant?? Or is it working already for anybody out
there?

thanks for any hints ;-)

best regs

HZN
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[Paul Davis]

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 4:06 AM, Hartmut Noack <zettberlin@...> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Hello,
>
> USB1 works OK with ALSA but what is the status for USB*2*-Soundcards?
>
> I cannot find any useful info on http://www.alsa-project.org/ . So what
> are you experiences? Anybody out there working on drivers for stuff like
> this:
>
> http://de.m-audio.com/products/de_de/FastTrackUltra.html
>
> ..that is not class-compliant?? Or is it working already for anybody out
> there?

i believe that clemens has stated previously:

   * there is no class driver for audio on USB2 for linux
   * almost all USB2 audio interfaces are not class compliant

something like that. chicken, meet egg.
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[Giso Grimm]

Hi,

however, there is at least one (not really commercially available) sound
card which utilizes the USB2 bandwidth, but being conform to the Linux
USB sound driver without any modification. This is a custom made deivce
for use with hearing aid shells, see

http://lad.linuxaudio.org/events/2009_cdm/Friday/07_Grimm/07.pdf

for a description. In its full configuration it provides six input
channels and two outputs, at 24bit/96kHz, resulting in 13500 kBit/s
capture bandwidth, and 4500 kBit/s playback bandwidth. At least the
input bit rate is above the USB 1.1 specification.

Not to useful information, just a proof that it is possible to have USB2
sound devices which are Linux snd_usb compatible.

Giso

Paul Davis wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 4:06 AM, Hartmut Noack <zettberlin@...> wrote:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> USB1 works OK with ALSA but what is the status for USB*2*-Soundcards?
>>
>> I cannot find any useful info on http://www.alsa-project.org/ . So what
>> are you experiences? Anybody out there working on drivers for stuff like
>> this:
>>
>> http://de.m-audio.com/products/de_de/FastTrackUltra.html
>>
>> ..that is not class-compliant?? Or is it working already for anybody out
>> there?
>
> i believe that clemens has stated previously:
>
>    * there is no class driver for audio on USB2 for linux
>    * almost all USB2 audio interfaces are not class compliant
>
> something like that. chicken, meet egg.
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[lorenzosu]

>
> USB1 works OK with ALSA but what is the status for USB*2*-Soundcards?
I guess this makes me think: what about the new USB 3.0? This morning I
was reading that the kernel shipped with the new version of Ubuntu
supports the standard, and new devices should start to be on the
market... From what I've read there should be a great improvement in
speed (as usual one has to understand what is media and market hype and
what is the real performance)

Could this at last free linux (but not only them) musician from
expensive an usually-badly-supported firewire cards?

I guess only time will tell :)

Kind regards,
Lorenzo

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[Jörn Nettingsmeier-6]

Lorenzo wrote:

>> USB1 works OK with ALSA but what is the status for USB*2*-Soundcards?
> I guess this makes me think: what about the new USB 3.0? This morning I
> was reading that the kernel shipped with the new version of Ubuntu
> supports the standard, and new devices should start to be on the
> market... From what I've read there should be a great improvement in
> speed (as usual one has to understand what is media and market hype and
> what is the real performance)
>
> Could this at last free linux (but not only them) musician from
> expensive an usually-badly-supported firewire cards?

there are some excellent and very well-supported firewire devices out
there. personally, i've been using the saffire pro26 and the mackie onyx
16ch mixer - both work very well on a properly tuned system. both would
qualify as "expensive", though, even though price/performance is more
than adequate.

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[Hartmut Noack]

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Jörn Nettingsmeier schrieb:
> Lorenzo wrote:
>>> USB1 works OK with ALSA but what is the status for USB*2*-Soundcards?
>> I guess this makes me think: what about the new USB 3.0?

...

>> Could this at last free linux (but not only them) musician from
>> expensive an usually-badly-supported firewire cards?
>
> there are some excellent and very well-supported firewire devices out
> there.

OK - that is confirmed

> personally, i've been using the saffire pro26 and the mackie onyx
> 16ch mixer - both work very well on a properly tuned system. both would
> qualify as "expensive",

and that is the point - I am about to set up a box for a friend. It is a
HP PIV 1GB RAM for 80 E whithin his budget. Unfortunately it is just 5-6
mm too small for his TerratecEWX-PCI-Soundcard.
We know that these envy24-cards are the gold-standard for Linux if you
cannot afford a hammerfall. USB2-Cards that are much better than any
built-in chip come by the score nowadays. But if you want something for
about 50-60E as a class-compliant USB1 interface the air is getting
thinner and thinner. Anything beyond the Behringer U-control in terms of
quality is USB2 today.

Firewire is OK but lets face it: interfaces working with alsa are more
fun. A USB1-interface that is properly supported by alsa is plug and
play without any hassle. Even supported FW-devices can fail severely if
you happen to have the wrong controller-chipset. Many older/cheaper
computers especially laptops do not have a FW-port in the first place.
And FW-interfaces are excluselively available via jack - so VLC and/or
xine *must* support jack to have fun with videos et al...

So again a last try: can anybody recommend any USB-interface recently
available for about 50 Eur/USD ?
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[Arnold Krille-3]

On Thursday 05 November 2009 23:40:43 Hartmut Noack wrote:
> So again a last try: can anybody recommend any USB-interface recently
> available for about 50 Eur/USD ?

I was going to recommend the edirol um22 like I own one. But then again you
are probably searching for a usb-audio interface ;-)

Lets face it: in the 50€ range there is nothing to expect except for behringer
and maybe terratec. Both cheap and noisy as hell. And not really better then
any built-in sound-card.

Arnold


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[Clemens Ladisch]

Hartmut Noack wrote:
> I am about to set up a box for a friend. ... Unfortunately it is just
> 5-6 mm too small for his TerratecEWX-PCI-Soundcard.

In which dimension?  Would a longer low-profile card fit?

> USB2-Cards that are much better than any built-in chip come by the
> score nowadays.

If you can live with no more than two unbalanced input channels, the
high-end (and -price) Xonar cards are much better than any USB(2)
device.


Best regards,
Clemens
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[Jörn Nettingsmeier-6]

Hartmut Noack wrote:

> Firewire is OK but lets face it: interfaces working with alsa are more
> fun. A USB1-interface that is properly supported by alsa is plug and
> play without any hassle. Even supported FW-devices can fail severely if
> you happen to have the wrong controller-chipset. Many older/cheaper
> computers especially laptops do not have a FW-port in the first place.
> And FW-interfaces are excluselively available via jack - so VLC and/or
> xine *must* support jack to have fun with videos et al...

all very valid points. although i find i'm piping even my recreational
stuff through jack these days, simply because i couldn't be bothered to
wire my second and third consumer soundcards any more...

the great advantage of firewire devices from my POV is that you can
easily share your device between your studio PC and your mobile kit for
on-location recording. the only alternative to that kind of flexibility
is an RME [multi|digi]face with both a hdsp expresscard and a pcie card.
which is in an entirely different price bracket.


best,

jörn

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[Florian Faber-2]

Jörn,

> the great advantage of firewire devices from my POV is that you can
> easily share your device between your studio PC and your mobile kit for
> on-location recording. the only alternative to that kind of flexibility
> is an RME [multi|digi]face with both a hdsp expresscard and a pcie card.
> which is in an entirely different price bracket.

Just in case you haven't noticed: Firewire is dead. The number of
devices with a firewire port is decreasing rapidly.

I wouldn't advocate Firewire devices anymore for new buyers.


Flo
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[Martin Homuth-Rosemann]

Am Freitag, 6. November 2009 schrieb Arnold Krille:

> On Thursday 05 November 2009 23:40:43 Hartmut Noack wrote:
> > So again a last try: can anybody recommend any USB-interface recently
> > available for about 50 Eur/USD ?
>
> I was going to recommend the edirol um22 like I own one. But then again you
> are probably searching for a usb-audio interface ;-)
>
> Lets face it: in the 50€ range there is nothing to expect except for
>  behringer and maybe terratec. Both cheap and noisy as hell. And not really
>  better then any built-in sound-card.
>
> Arnold
>

Arnold,

you're right - the pcm2902 codec is broken by design. The internal voltage
reference shows a terrible distortion because the 1 kHz usb clock isn't  
decoupled properly. The data sheet
(http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/pcm2902.pdf) recommends the use of an
external voltage reference for "a high-performance application" (figure 37) -
unfortunately Behringer uses the circuit for "a simple application" (like
figure 39).
I tested my UCA202 with Fons' jaaa and got a "nice" peak at 1 kHz - it went
away after adding a REG103-A to my UCA (you can get free samples from TI).

Ciao Martin
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[Ivica Ico Bukvic-3]

Sorry to barge in on the conversation, but it seems to me that the UA-101
remains closest we got to a working USB2 soundcard yet it is not functional
enough to be useful (clicks due to lack of proper sync). I had a student
giving it a try earlier this summer and had high hopes that he would come
through. Alas, he gave up or got side-tracked with studies and
unfortunately, the thing is still not working...

Any hope anyone else might take this one up anytime soon?

Ico

> -----Original Message-----
> From: linux-audio-user-bounces@... [mailto:linux-audio-
> user-bounces@...] On Behalf Of Clemens Ladisch
> Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 2:53 AM
> To: Hartmut Noack
> Cc: linux audio users
> Subject: Re: [LAU] status usb2 for sound
>
> Hartmut Noack wrote:
> > I am about to set up a box for a friend. ... Unfortunately it is just
> > 5-6 mm too small for his TerratecEWX-PCI-Soundcard.
>
> In which dimension?  Would a longer low-profile card fit?
>
> > USB2-Cards that are much better than any built-in chip come by the
> > score nowadays.
>
> If you can live with no more than two unbalanced input channels, the
> high-end (and -price) Xonar cards are much better than any USB(2)
> device.
>
>
> Best regards,
> Clemens
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-audio-user mailing list
> Linux-audio-user@...
> http://lists.linuxaudio.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-audio-user

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[Arnold Krille-3]

On Friday 06 November 2009 10:28:26 Florian Faber wrote:
> > the great advantage of firewire devices from my POV is that you can
> > easily share your device between your studio PC and your mobile kit for
> > on-location recording. the only alternative to that kind of flexibility
> > is an RME [multi|digi]face with both a hdsp expresscard and a pcie card.
> > which is in an entirely different price bracket.
> Just in case you haven't noticed: Firewire is dead. The number of
> devices with a firewire port is decreasing rapidly.
> I wouldn't advocate Firewire devices anymore for new buyers.

But there are no alternatives. USB1 is to slow, USB2 has no (widely accepted)
standard. USB3 has no devices yet, don't know whether it defines a standard.

PCCards are usually limited to one per laptop.

Firewire is the only thing where you can have high number of channels and even
more then one device on one connection. And work for supporting almost all
devices except for Motu is quite advanced thanks to support from the vendors.

The only alternative for higher channel counts is a pci(-express) device from
rme. And these don't work with laptops...

Have fun,

Arnold


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[Hartmut Noack]

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Arnold Krille schrieb:
> On Friday 06 November 2009 10:28:26 Florian Faber wrote:

>> Just in case you haven't noticed: Firewire is dead. The number of
>> devices with a firewire port is decreasing rapidly.
>> I wouldn't advocate Firewire devices anymore for new buyers.
>
> But there are no alternatives. USB1 is to slow, USB2 has no (widely accepted)
> standard. USB3 has no devices yet, don't know whether it defines a standard.

And even if you only need the 2 channels USB1 can provide easily you
wont find any USB1-Device on the shelf. The vendors build everything in
USB2 - just because it is there and they don not want to discuss
consumer-questions like "What?! USB1 only - and I shall pay more then 20
for such an antique piece of equipment?".


> Firewire is the only thing where you can have high number of channels and even
> more then one device on one connection. And work for supporting almost all
> devices except for Motu is quite advanced thanks to support from the vendors.

So these big beasts seem to be the only alternative...

I can only hope, that the distributors wake up and put some of their
big-company-weight (and errrmm maybe some of their money?) into that.

But they seem to be totally unaware of something like a need for
pro-audio-support for Linux. - What a misconception! Every OS out there
that qualifies as "full grown" offers support for everything any user
today does on a PC. MS and Apple do not ignore audio-needs just because
audio-producers are only a small percentage of the userbase.

The SuseAG showed some insight on this as they put the alsa-people on
their payroll and set up a certified-for-linux programme for
multimedia-devices that made Linux visible to companies like Terratec.
As a result we now have perfect support for envy24-cards.
But NOVELL cut these efforts. And other distributors, that proudly claim
"We love the desktop-user!"? They do not much more than to gracefully
accept a halfhearted integration of the unpaid efforts of free devs in
the backyards of their repos...

I really wonder what can be done to change this...
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[Arnold Krille-3]

On Saturday 07 November 2009 12:06:20 Hartmut Noack wrote:
> Arnold Krille schrieb:
> > Firewire is the only thing where you can have high number of channels and
> > even more then one device on one connection. And work for supporting
> > almost all devices except for Motu is quite advanced thanks to support
> > from the vendors.
> So these big beasts seem to be the only alternative...

They aren't all big. The Focusrite Saffire PRO24 is rather small, bus-powered
(if you want) but still has lots of inputs. And without the DSP it is not that
much money for what you get.

> I can only hope, that the distributors wake up and put some of their
> big-company-weight (and errrmm maybe some of their money?) into that.
> But they seem to be totally unaware of something like a need for
> pro-audio-support for Linux. - What a misconception! Every OS out there
> that qualifies as "full grown" offers support for everything any user
> today does on a PC. MS and Apple do not ignore audio-needs just because
> audio-producers are only a small percentage of the userbase.
> The SuseAG showed some insight on this as they put the alsa-people on
> their payroll and set up a certified-for-linux programme for
> multimedia-devices that made Linux visible to companies like Terratec.
> As a result we now have perfect support for envy24-cards.
> But NOVELL cut these efforts. And other distributors, that proudly claim
> "We love the desktop-user!"? They do not much more than to gracefully
> accept a halfhearted integration of the unpaid efforts of free devs in
> the backyards of their repos...
> I really wonder what can be done to change this...

Actually Redhat employees are helping on making ffado run on the new firewire-
stack through libraw1394...
And TC electronics did give some financial support too. Only it was not enough
to pay ppalmers full-time, so he had to take a job.

Arnold


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[Ralf Beck]

You are blaming the wrong people.

Its soley the card manufactures not providing the necessary information.
So, if they don't help, don't buy their products.

Or you learn how USB2 is working and use some tools like usbspy or
usbmonitor on XP/Vista to decipher the protocol your device uses and
write a driver
yourself. Since you won't do this, don't blame others if they don't do
it as well.

Best regards
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[Dominic Sacré]

On Friday 06 of November 2009 19:55:25 Martin Homuth-Rosemann wrote:

> you're right - the pcm2902 codec is broken by design. The internal
> voltage reference shows a terrible distortion because the 1 kHz usb
> clock isn't decoupled properly. The data sheet
> (http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/pcm2902.pdf) recommends the use
> of an external voltage reference for "a high-performance application"
> (figure 37) - unfortunately Behringer uses the circuit for "a simple
> application" (like figure 39).
> I tested my UCA202 with Fons' jaaa and got a "nice" peak at 1 kHz -
> it went away after adding a REG103-A to my UCA (you can get free
> samples from TI).

Hi Martin,

How do you "add" a REG103-A? Do I need a deep knowledge of electronics,
or would a soldering iron be enough? ;)

I've got a UCA202 which causes a very audible, pulsating noise at
multiples of 1 kHz while running Jack. If there's a way to fix it, I'd
like to try. Of course the device was cheap, and as it is it's pretty
much useless to me, so I'm not all too afraid of breaking it...


Dominic
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[Paul Davis]

On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 6:06 AM, Hartmut Noack <zettberlin@...> wrote:

>
> But they seem to be totally unaware of something like a need for
> pro-audio-support for Linux. - What a misconception! Every OS out there
> that qualifies as "full grown" offers support for everything any user
> today does on a PC. MS and Apple do not ignore audio-needs just because
> audio-producers are only a small percentage of the userbase.

No, Apple (which is the only one of the two) just decides to drop
firewire on its not-top-of-the-line machines, thus rendering the audio
interface hardware already owned by thousands of people unusable on a
new machine. Because "it doesn't matter" ....

> The SuseAG showed some insight on this as they put the alsa-people on
> their payroll and set up a certified-for-linux programme for
> multimedia-devices that made Linux visible to companies like Terratec.
> As a result we now have perfect support for envy24-cards.

AFAIK, we had perfect support for envy24 cards before "certified for
linux" ever existed. Are there specific things that you know which
were added/improved/fixed because of the input of h/w vendors and/or
the CFL program?
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[david-602]

Dominic Sacré wrote:

> On Friday 06 of November 2009 19:55:25 Martin Homuth-Rosemann wrote:
>> you're right - the pcm2902 codec is broken by design. The internal
>> voltage reference shows a terrible distortion because the 1 kHz usb
>> clock isn't decoupled properly. The data sheet
>> (http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/pcm2902.pdf) recommends the use
>> of an external voltage reference for "a high-performance application"
>> (figure 37) - unfortunately Behringer uses the circuit for "a simple
>> application" (like figure 39).
>> I tested my UCA202 with Fons' jaaa and got a "nice" peak at 1 kHz -
>> it went away after adding a REG103-A to my UCA (you can get free
>> samples from TI).
>
> Hi Martin,
>
> How do you "add" a REG103-A? Do I need a deep knowledge of electronics,
> or would a soldering iron be enough? ;)
>
> I've got a UCA202 which causes a very audible, pulsating noise at
> multiples of 1 kHz while running Jack. If there's a way to fix it, I'd
> like to try. Of course the device was cheap, and as it is it's pretty
> much useless to me, so I'm not all too afraid of breaking it...

Strange, I've got a UCA202 that doesn't have any such noise at all.

I used to get noises when I had it plugged in via a self-powered
external USB hub.

--
David
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authenticity, honesty, community
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[Florian Faber-2]

Arnold,

>> Just in case you haven't noticed: Firewire is dead. The number of
>> devices with a firewire port is decreasing rapidly.
>> I wouldn't advocate Firewire devices anymore for new buyers.
> But there are no alternatives. USB1 is to slow, USB2 has no (widely accepted)
> standard. USB3 has no devices yet, don't know whether it defines a standard.

Nobody is interested in the linux market, and on the Mac and PC market
the firewire ports are vanishing rapidly. It doesn't take long and the
firewire devices vanish as well from the market.

The manufacturers for medium sized boxes (<64 channels) seem to be
switching to USB. And for higher channel numbers, there are other solutions.

> The only alternative for higher channel counts is a pci(-express) device from
> rme. And these don't work with laptops...

You can use all Hammerfall IO Boxes and the MADIface with Notebooks.
With the MADIface I hava 64 channels IO in under 1.5kg.

I know that you love your firewire stuff. But you should accept that
it's at a dead end.


Flo
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