thoughts on Openoctave Midi?

[david-602]

http://www.openoctave.org

Copy paste from an email on Linux Audio Users discussion list:

> New on the playing field is openoctave midi (openoctave.org).
> The project focuses on a workflow for orchestral composition and
> openoctave midi is the application used for the midi part.
> It's based on rosegarden but everything but midi got removed, the midi
> part got some love, and the focus there is on a good keyboard driven
> workflow. I heard there should be a demonstration video out soon, oom
> is available through a git repository so far.

Just curious ...

--
David
gnome@...
authenticity, honesty, community

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[lorenzosu]

I could agree with the idea of focusing on MIDI (i.e. abandoning audio) given the developments of Ardour and rosegarden jack compatibility (I usually "record" rosegarden with synced Ardour session).

I was struck and surprised to read about removing notation for an environment seeking to keep in mind "users who write orchestral music". Personally I think at the moment Rosegarden is the best general notation editor around for linux with great (computer) keyboard support. Dropping completely notation seems more fit for midi arrangers, pop/modern midi base writers and piano-roll people than orchestral composers to me, but I guess that is very personal.


Kind regards,
Lorenzo.
david wrote:

http://www.openoctave.org

Copy paste from an email on Linux Audio Users discussion list:

  

New on the playing field is openoctave midi (openoctave.org).
The project focuses on a workflow for orchestral composition and
openoctave midi is the application used for the midi part.
It's based on rosegarden but everything but midi got removed, the midi
part got some love, and the focus there is on a good keyboard driven
workflow. I heard there should be a demonstration video out soon, oom
is available through a git repository so far.
    

Just curious ...

  

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[Luis Garrido-4]

> I was struck and surprised to read about removing notation for an
> environment seeking to keep in mind "users who write orchestral music".

If you have ever tried to make an orchestral score sound minimally
realistic using a sampler you'll understand why.

Advanced sampler control takes lots of midi trickery: complex midi
routing, multiple tracks for a single staff, overlays, irregular
quantization, key switching, CC messages galore...

A software that tries to keep both views of a track in synch would be
extremely complex and not really necessary. Given very limited
development resources it is much more sensible to "compile" the output
of a score-only program into a complex midi track that can then be
tweaked in a midi-only sequencer.

What the oo guys are doing makes perfect sense, although the moment
they chose to strip down RG is perhaps not the most fortunate
(migration to Qt4,) but what can you do?

Luis

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[Brett McCoy-2]

On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 5:35 AM, Lorenzo <lsutton@...> wrote:

> I could agree with the idea of focusing on MIDI (i.e. abandoning audio)
> given the developments of Ardour and rosegarden jack compatibility (I
> usually "record" rosegarden with synced Ardour session).
>
> I was struck and surprised to read about removing notation for an
> environment seeking to keep in mind "users who write orchestral music".
> Personally I think at the moment Rosegarden is the best general notation
> editor around for linux with great (computer) keyboard support. Dropping
> completely notation seems more fit for midi arrangers, pop/modern midi base
> writers and piano-roll people than orchestral composers to me, but I guess
> that is very personal.

Scoring orchestral music for live musicians with a notation editor is
one thing. Creating the actual audio tracks from samples is another --
MIDI orchestration requires some fairly complex layering and event
tweaking. Rosegarden, luckily, provides an easy way to tweak the notes
in a score directly (most score editors like Sibelius or Finale make
it much more difficult), and I still tend to start off with notation
first and then tweak the underlying MIDI. Unfortunately, doing this in
Rosegarden can mess up the notation somewhat, so in many cases it's
better to create the notation score separate from the playback MIDI.

-- Brett
------------------------------------------------------------
"In the rhythm of music a secret is hidden;
    If I were to divulge it, it would overturn the world."
               -- Jelaleddin Rumi

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[D. Michael McIntyre]

On Tuesday 15 September 2009, Lorenzo wrote:
> I was struck and surprised to read about removing notation for an
> environment seeking to keep in mind "users who write orchestral music".

You probably have the same culture shock problem I do.  I'm a musician.  Not a
great musician, and I don't get paid much or often, but I'm a musician.  As a
composer, I compose for musicians.

In my world, a "score" is some pages you put on the stand, and "orchestral
music" is when you put those pages in front of a bunch of different musicians
who all get together at the same time to play it.

In their world,  a "score" is more or less another word for soundtrack, and
"orchestral" is just how the soundtrack sounds.  What they're doing has
nothing to do with "writing orchestral music" in the same sense that, say,
John Williams writes orchestral music.

I have no idea if John Williams uses a computer to compose or not, but I can't
see him spending all day with Vienna Sampler (or whatever; first name that
jumped into my mind) poring over the details of getting the string section to
sound good by using a long string of controllers and program changes.

What it comes down to is just two completely different but equally valid
definitions of the word "score."

It took me a long time to really understand this about myself, and fully
appreciate that's where my feelings were coming from on all of this.  The
personal journey I've been on for the past 15 or so years that has brought me  
to become a part of Rosegarden, and then one of the chief forces behind
driving Rosegarden, all of this has been all about evolving away from doing
pure electronica and doing more music with a focus on real players on real
horns.  All these exotic sample manipulations and complex digital hackery are
not something I am merely ambivalent about.  They are something I might even
go so far as to call repulsive or repugnant to me, in the same way my heart
sinks every time I hear a cool James Brown lick, my ears perk up, and then I
realize it's just another damn regurgitated sample.

I'm glad they have their own project now, and that users have a choice what
sort of "score" they want to create.  I say again that both definitions are
equally valid, and there is no absolute truth in any of this.  Only a matter
of personal philosophy and opinion, and mine and theirs do not mix well under
the same roof at all.
--
D. Michael McIntyre

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[Brett McCoy-2]

On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 2:27 PM, D. Michael McIntyre
<michael.mcintyre@...> wrote:

> I have no idea if John Williams uses a computer to compose or not, but I can't
> see him spending all day with Vienna Sampler (or whatever; first name that
> jumped into my mind) poring over the details of getting the string section to
> sound good by using a long string of controllers and program changes.

John Williams is one of the few composers who don't use a computer to
make mockups -- in actuality, he likely employs someone to do the
actual orchestration from the musical sketches he puts together.
However, for most composers, doing MIDI mockups is pretty essential
for film scoring, as it gives the director an idea of how the music
will sound (think of it as how animatics are used for visual
animatics). Unless the film has a small budget, though, it's unlikely
for a MIDI mockup to be used for the final product. And therein lies
the task of being able to produce a legible score for the live players
and conductor to use.

For the rest of us, who are not necessarily doing film scoring, doing
MIDI orchestration is the only way we can have a symphony playing in
our music!

-- Brett
------------------------------------------------------------
"In the rhythm of music a secret is hidden;
    If I were to divulge it, it would overturn the world."
               -- Jelaleddin Rumi

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[Christopher Cherrett]

-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: Re: [Rosegarden-user] thoughts on Openoctave Midi?
From: Brett McCoy <idragosani@...>
To: D. Michael McIntyre <michael.mcintyre@...>
Cc: rosegarden-user@...
Date: 09/15/09 13:03

> On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 2:27 PM, D. Michael McIntyre
> <michael.mcintyre@...> wrote:
>
>  
>> I have no idea if John Williams uses a computer to compose or not, but I can't
>> see him spending all day with Vienna Sampler (or whatever; first name that
>> jumped into my mind) poring over the details of getting the string section to
>> sound good by using a long string of controllers and program changes.
>>    
>
> John Williams is one of the few composers who don't use a computer to
> make mockups -- in actuality, he likely employs someone to do the
> actual orchestration from the musical sketches he puts together.
> However, for most composers, doing MIDI mockups is pretty essential
> for film scoring, as it gives the director an idea of how the music
> will sound (think of it as how animatics are used for visual
> animatics). Unless the film has a small budget, though, it's unlikely
> for a MIDI mockup to be used for the final product. And therein lies
> the task of being able to produce a legible score for the live players
> and conductor to use.
>
> For the rest of us, who are not necessarily doing film scoring, doing
> MIDI orchestration is the only way we can have a symphony playing in
> our music!
>
> -- Brett
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> "In the rhythm of music a secret is hidden;
>     If I were to divulge it, it would overturn the world."
>                -- Jelaleddin Rumi
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now!
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> _______________________________________________
> Rosegarden-user mailing list
> Rosegarden-user@... - use the link below to unsubscribe
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
>  

Brett,

Having founded The Open Octave Project (with Alex Stone), I can say it
is truly refreshing to see that you get it.

I just finished mapping my entire studio and have given it over to my
musician wife. She now has real time access to her entire library (VSL
PRO Ed Cube, Project SAMs True Strike 1 and 2). It is the first time she
has been able to explore her libraries in real time with no loading or
delays (installed new SSD drives for the samples). It is all controlled
by one script that makes sure everything starts and stays connected.

129 tracks in oomidi
129 channels in linuxsampler
129 tracks in ardour with 60 busses hundreds of sends all panned and
feeding to jconv for very realistic convolution reverb.

And this all connects through the script and the user just has to run
it. They have no idea after that of what is going on, it just works!

But to make one thing clear, if thorn comes out and kicks oomidi in the
pants, I would abandon the work I have done and port it to thorn. The
reason is that I do not care about the application. I care about the
music. The application must be as transparent as possible. This means
fine tuning workflow in the application until music making becomes
second nature and fun.

So I wish all the RG devs well and hope thorn turns out very well, the
same way I hope Ardour Midi shines!

In the end my wife has a big smile on her face and she is able to play
and have fun while creating amazing music. What could be better than that.

P.S. I think it would be an idea for RG devs and OO Devs to share notes.

Thanks!


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[Brian Clem]

I like the idea behind the work-flow as it looks like it might add important tools to Rosegarden... I was not able to compile oomidi since I am not running a kde3.x friendly environment.     Its weird since I have Rosegarden 1.7.3 and Thorn 10.02 on my computer.  Kde 3.x libs seem to becoming more obselite (to make them play nicley with Kde 4.) making a program compile more challenging.  For that reason, should Thorn become more of a focus?  

On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 6:24 PM, Christopher Cherrett <stuff@...> wrote:

-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: Re: [Rosegarden-user] thoughts on Openoctave Midi?
From: Brett McCoy <idragosani@...>
To: D. Michael McIntyre <michael.mcintyre@...>
Cc: rosegarden-user@...
Date: 09/15/09 13:03
> On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 2:27 PM, D. Michael McIntyre
> <michael.mcintyre@...> wrote:
>
>
>> I have no idea if John Williams uses a computer to compose or not, but I can't
>> see him spending all day with Vienna Sampler (or whatever; first name that
>> jumped into my mind) poring over the details of getting the string section to
>> sound good by using a long string of controllers and program changes.
>>
>
> John Williams is one of the few composers who don't use a computer to
> make mockups -- in actuality, he likely employs someone to do the
> actual orchestration from the musical sketches he puts together.
> However, for most composers, doing MIDI mockups is pretty essential
> for film scoring, as it gives the director an idea of how the music
> will sound (think of it as how animatics are used for visual
> animatics). Unless the film has a small budget, though, it's unlikely
> for a MIDI mockup to be used for the final product. And therein lies
> the task of being able to produce a legible score for the live players
> and conductor to use.
>
> For the rest of us, who are not necessarily doing film scoring, doing
> MIDI orchestration is the only way we can have a symphony playing in
> our music!
>
> -- Brett
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> "In the rhythm of music a secret is hidden;
>     If I were to divulge it, it would overturn the world."
>                -- Jelaleddin Rumi
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Come build with us! The BlackBerry&reg; Developer Conference in SF, CA
> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9&#45;12, 2009. Register now&#33;
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
> _______________________________________________
> Rosegarden-user mailing list
> Rosegarden-user@... - use the link below to unsubscribe
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
>
Brett,

Having founded The Open Octave Project (with Alex Stone), I can say it
is truly refreshing to see that you get it.

I just finished mapping my entire studio and have given it over to my
musician wife. She now has real time access to her entire library (VSL
PRO Ed Cube, Project SAMs True Strike 1 and 2). It is the first time she
has been able to explore her libraries in real time with no loading or
delays (installed new SSD drives for the samples). It is all controlled
by one script that makes sure everything starts and stays connected.

129 tracks in oomidi
129 channels in linuxsampler
129 tracks in ardour with 60 busses hundreds of sends all panned and
feeding to jconv for very realistic convolution reverb.

And this all connects through the script and the user just has to run
it. They have no idea after that of what is going on, it just works!

But to make one thing clear, if thorn comes out and kicks oomidi in the
pants, I would abandon the work I have done and port it to thorn. The
reason is that I do not care about the application. I care about the
music. The application must be as transparent as possible. This means
fine tuning workflow in the application until music making becomes
second nature and fun.

So I wish all the RG devs well and hope thorn turns out very well, the
same way I hope Ardour Midi shines!

In the end my wife has a big smile on her face and she is able to play
and have fun while creating amazing music. What could be better than that.

P.S. I think it would be an idea for RG devs and OO Devs to share notes.

Thanks!


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Christopher Cherrett]

-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: Re: [Rosegarden-user] OOStudio is fully operational. (WAS) Re:
    thoughts on Openoctave Midi?
From: Brian Clem <mrbrianclem@...>
To: Christopher Cherrett <stuff@...>
Cc: Brett McCoy <idragosani@...>,
rosegarden-user@..., "D. Michael McIntyre"
<michael.mcintyre@...>
Date: 09/15/09 18:16
>
> I like the idea behind the work-flow as it looks like it might add
> important tools to Rosegarden...
In reality RG could immediately use our pipeline because of our close
tie. We are using a2jmidid to allow us to bridge alsa midi to jack midi.
This has resulted in much better timing. a2jmidid is very unstable so we
run it in our startup script and once the studio is started we just
monitor for any crashes and restart automatically every 10 seconds and
reconnect ports with jack_connect. It sounds like a hack and it is :)
but the result is a machine that stays running for days with no issues
and if a2jmidid crashes it just starts back up and most of the time it
is only a few seconds you are down.
> I was not able to compile oomidi since I am not running a kde3.x
> friendly environment.     Its weird since I have Rosegarden 1.7.3 and
> Thorn 10.02 on my computer.  Kde 3.x libs seem to becoming more
> obselite (to make them play nicley with Kde 4.) making a program
> compile more challenging.  
I am trying to help someone else with this now. It is a problem. For
this reason, we have decided to become very specialized. We are running
Gentoo with fluxbox and everything is tweeked with hotkeys. It is lean
mean and "just works". All the issues I have seen are coming from Ubuntu.
> For that reason, should Thorn become more of a focus?  
At this point I have a working system. So one of two things is going to
happen.

1. We port oomidi to qt4 kde4
2. We team up with rg devs.

We started as a branch in RG but Micheal and I just could not stop
having peeing matches :)
Possibly that will stop some day :)

>
> On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 6:24 PM, Christopher Cherrett
> <stuff@... <mailto:stuff@...>> wrote:
>
>     -------- Original Message  --------
>     Subject: Re: [Rosegarden-user] thoughts on Openoctave Midi?
>     From: Brett McCoy <idragosani@... <mailto:idragosani@...>>
>     To: D. Michael McIntyre <michael.mcintyre@...
>     <mailto:michael.mcintyre@...>>
>     Cc: rosegarden-user@...
>     <mailto:rosegarden-user@...>
>     Date: 09/15/09 13:03
>     > On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 2:27 PM, D. Michael McIntyre
>     > <michael.mcintyre@...
>     <mailto:michael.mcintyre@...>> wrote:
>     >
>     >
>     >> I have no idea if John Williams uses a computer to compose or
>     not, but I can't
>     >> see him spending all day with Vienna Sampler (or whatever;
>     first name that
>     >> jumped into my mind) poring over the details of getting the
>     string section to
>     >> sound good by using a long string of controllers and program
>     changes.
>     >>
>     >
>     > John Williams is one of the few composers who don't use a
>     computer to
>     > make mockups -- in actuality, he likely employs someone to do the
>     > actual orchestration from the musical sketches he puts together.
>     > However, for most composers, doing MIDI mockups is pretty essential
>     > for film scoring, as it gives the director an idea of how the music
>     > will sound (think of it as how animatics are used for visual
>     > animatics). Unless the film has a small budget, though, it's
>     unlikely
>     > for a MIDI mockup to be used for the final product. And therein lies
>     > the task of being able to produce a legible score for the live
>     players
>     > and conductor to use.
>     >
>     > For the rest of us, who are not necessarily doing film scoring,
>     doing
>     > MIDI orchestration is the only way we can have a symphony playing in
>     > our music!
>     >
>     > -- Brett
>     > ------------------------------------------------------------
>     > "In the rhythm of music a secret is hidden;
>     >     If I were to divulge it, it would overturn the world."
>     >                -- Jelaleddin Rumi
>     >
>     >
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     > Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in
>     SF, CA
>     > is the only developer event you need to attend this year.
>     Jumpstart your
>     > developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market
>     and stay
>     > ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009.
>     Register now!
>     > http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > Rosegarden-user mailing list
>     > Rosegarden-user@...
>     <mailto:Rosegarden-user@...> - use the link
>     below to unsubscribe
>     > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
>     >
>     Brett,
>
>     Having founded The Open Octave Project (with Alex Stone), I can say it
>     is truly refreshing to see that you get it.
>
>     I just finished mapping my entire studio and have given it over to my
>     musician wife. She now has real time access to her entire library (VSL
>     PRO Ed Cube, Project SAMs True Strike 1 and 2). It is the first
>     time she
>     has been able to explore her libraries in real time with no loading or
>     delays (installed new SSD drives for the samples). It is all
>     controlled
>     by one script that makes sure everything starts and stays connected.
>
>     129 tracks in oomidi
>     129 channels in linuxsampler
>     129 tracks in ardour with 60 busses hundreds of sends all panned and
>     feeding to jconv for very realistic convolution reverb.
>
>     And this all connects through the script and the user just has to run
>     it. They have no idea after that of what is going on, it just works!
>
>     But to make one thing clear, if thorn comes out and kicks oomidi
>     in the
>     pants, I would abandon the work I have done and port it to thorn. The
>     reason is that I do not care about the application. I care about the
>     music. The application must be as transparent as possible. This means
>     fine tuning workflow in the application until music making becomes
>     second nature and fun.
>
>     So I wish all the RG devs well and hope thorn turns out very well, the
>     same way I hope Ardour Midi shines!
>
>     In the end my wife has a big smile on her face and she is able to play
>     and have fun while creating amazing music. What could be better
>     than that.
>
>     P.S. I think it would be an idea for RG devs and OO Devs to share
>     notes.
>
>     Thanks!
>
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
>     is the only developer event you need to attend this year.
>     Jumpstart your
>     developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market
>     and stay
>     ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register
>     now!
>     http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
>     _______________________________________________
>     Rosegarden-user mailing list
>     Rosegarden-user@...
>     <mailto:Rosegarden-user@...> - use the link
>     below to unsubscribe
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>

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[Brett McCoy-2]

On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 9:10 PM, Christopher Cherrett
<stuff@...> wrote:

> I am trying to help someone else with this now. It is a problem. For this
> reason, we have decided to become very specialized. We are running Gentoo
> with fluxbox and everything is tweeked with hotkeys. It is lean mean and
> "just works". All the issues I have seen are coming from Ubuntu.

And that someone gave up on Ubuntu and is now down in the studio
installing Gentoo on his main studio machine which he was going to do
sometime soon anyway.... :-)

-- Brett
------------------------------------------------------------
"In the rhythm of music a secret is hidden;
    If I were to divulge it, it would overturn the world."
               -- Jelaleddin Rumi

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[Christopher Cherrett]

-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: Re: [Rosegarden-user] OOStudio is fully operational. (WAS) Re:
    thoughts on Openoctave Midi?
From: Brett McCoy <idragosani@...>
To: Christopher Cherrett <stuff@...>
Cc: Brian Clem <mrbrianclem@...>,
rosegarden-user@..., "D. Michael McIntyre"
<michael.mcintyre@...>
Date: 09/15/09 19:31

> On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 9:10 PM, Christopher Cherrett
> <stuff@...> wrote:
>
>  
>> I am trying to help someone else with this now. It is a problem. For this
>> reason, we have decided to become very specialized. We are running Gentoo
>> with fluxbox and everything is tweeked with hotkeys. It is lean mean and
>> "just works". All the issues I have seen are coming from Ubuntu.
>>    
>
> And that someone gave up on Ubuntu and is now down in the studio
> installing Gentoo on his main studio machine which he was going to do
> sometime soon anyway.... :-)
>
> -- Brett
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> "In the rhythm of music a secret is hidden;
>     If I were to divulge it, it would overturn the world."
>                -- Jelaleddin Rumi
>  

ccherrett high fives idragosani! :)


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[D. Michael McIntyre]

On Tuesday 15 September 2009, Christopher Cherrett wrote:

> In reality RG could immediately use our pipeline because of our close
> tie. We are using a2jmidid to allow us to bridge alsa midi to jack midi.

This sounds interesting to talk about after Thorn.  Why it's better, why it's
worth putting up with the instability, and so on.  Better timing sounds good,
regular crashes sound bad, but beyond that I have no real opinion.

> mean and "just works". All the issues I have seen are coming from Ubuntu.

Ubuntu is very popular, but I'm starting to wonder if it isn't a lost cause
for our purposes.  It has been causing us a lot of trouble too.

> 1. We port oomidi to qt4 kde4
> 2. We team up with rg devs.

It will be interesting to see how that turns out.  I don't know what I would
do if I were you.  I've been thinking about that a fair bit lately.

I think you really have little choice but to take Thorn, and either we merge
back together, or you take a new fork.

I really just don't know whether we could co-exist under the same roof or not,
but I think it would be best for us to open a dialog.
--
D. Michael McIntyre

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[Christopher Cherrett]

-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: Re: [Rosegarden-user] OOStudio is fully operational. (WAS) Re:  
thoughts on Openoctave Midi?
From: D. Michael McIntyre <michael.mcintyre@...>
To: rosegarden-user@...
Date: 09/15/09 22:25

> On Tuesday 15 September 2009, Christopher Cherrett wrote:
>
>  
>> In reality RG could immediately use our pipeline because of our close
>> tie. We are using a2jmidid to allow us to bridge alsa midi to jack midi.
>>    
>
> This sounds interesting to talk about after Thorn.  Why it's better, why it's
> worth putting up with the instability, and so on.  Better timing sounds good,
> regular crashes sound bad, but beyond that I have no real opinion.
>  

The crashes mostly happen on start for some reason. The original author
has abandoned the code, however it has been picked up by Paul
(Ardour/Jack) and he is integrating it into jack1. It also looks like we
are sticking with Jack 1 instead of Jack 2 because Paul is putting his
efforts into Jack 1

The timing is so much better than before. In large scores you would get
the playback slowing down and speeding up. It was very enoying. That is
all gone now. It plays back perfect all the time with little to no lost
events.
>  
>> mean and "just works". All the issues I have seen are coming from Ubuntu.
>>    
>
> Ubuntu is very popular, but I'm starting to wonder if it isn't a lost cause
> for our purposes.  It has been causing us a lot of trouble too.
>  
<OS WAR>
    <DISTRO>
       <UBUNTU>
           <RANT>

I have no time to babysit a distro. Call me harsh but if people want to
make serious music they must get serious about their computer. My
machine is very tweaked because without it things just don't work right.
I want a minimalistic install with no fluff. This machine is for just
making music. Not video games, youtube, listening to my favorite tunes.
If you try to do everything on one machine you end up with a machine
that you cannot count on daily for get up and go operations.

           </RANT>
       </UBUNTU>
    </DISTRO>
</OS WAR>

>  
>> 1. We port oomidi to qt4 kde4
>> 2. We team up with rg devs.
>>    
>
> It will be interesting to see how that turns out.  I don't know what I would
> do if I were you.  I've been thinking about that a fair bit lately.
>
> I think you really have little choice but to take Thorn, and either we merge
> back together, or you take a new fork.
>  

There would be a lot to change in Thorn to get back the work flow we
have created in oomidi.

1. Hotkeys (we talked about a note addition mode). Our new hotkey map is
very very fast for editing.
2. Solo each track, very nice addition.
3. Program Change Editor, Program Change ruler
4 Vlada's cool new icons and theme :)
5. Granular Event Rulers. But I think you might have this under control
already with new rulers. Can you explain w3hat this is or show a
screenshot. I now allow events to be added in with a property line at
grid designation and events show as thin lines not thick. Also when you
draw an event line it overwrites the old event lines it passes over.
This has made it much easier to get the control of velocities and volume
needed for authentic playback.
6. We have new navigation of the edit cursor and playhead. I know you
are going with one cursor now so it might be very easy to deal with.

There is a lot of little nice to haves that I changed as well. Like Solo
in segments turns off when you close the editor. this avoids all the
"Hey what segment is soloed" craziness.

I am putting up a work flow video soon that you might want to check out
to see what I am talking about.
> I really just don't know whether we could co-exist under the same roof or not,
> but I think it would be best for us to open a dialog.
>  
Well at the very least we are having this conversation :)


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[lorenzosu]

Hi all,

I guess my previous message might have given a wrong impression.
I am no way an anti-midi, 'pen and paper' fundamentalist, vice versa I fully appreciate the potential of midi, which although nearly 30 years old is still current and useful in many situations: I myself used it in many situation and find it invaluable for the non-John Williams musician who can't afford the luxury of just writing and having a full orchestra at his will.
Nor I ignore the differences in approach and issues related to the rendering of a piece using midi - see my message on soundfonts :), especially being a guitarist I know the abyss between writing a guitar score and having it rendered decently by midi - a real challenge.

That said, I still find notation valuable during the creation, sketching, 'improvising with the score' process (for 'Western Tonal Music' of course), and would assume that although perfectible one could simply take the notation features of Rosegarden as is (currently very good IMHO) and focus on other parts. Of course I'm not a developer nor an expert of big software projects, so I'm not sure how a forking process really work and how this would impact on the development.

All the best,
Lorenzo.

I have no idea if John Williams uses a computer to compose or not, but I can't
see him spending all day with Vienna Sampler (or whatever; first name that
jumped into my mind) poring over the details of getting the string section to
sound good by using a long string of controllers and program changes.
    

John Williams is one of the few composers who don't use a computer to
make mockups -- in actuality, he likely employs someone to do the
actual orchestration from the musical sketches he puts together.
However, for most composers, doing MIDI mockups is pretty essential
for film scoring, as it gives the director an idea of how the music
will sound (think of it as how animatics are used for visual
animatics). Unless the film has a small budget, though, it's unlikely
for a MIDI mockup to be used for the final product. And therein lies
the task of being able to produce a legible score for the live players
and conductor to use.

For the rest of us, who are not necessarily doing film scoring, doing
MIDI orchestration is the only way we can have a symphony playing in
our music!

-- Brett
------------------------------------------------------------
"In the rhythm of music a secret is hidden;
    If I were to divulge it, it would overturn the world."
               -- Jelaleddin Rumi

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[Christopher Cherrett]

-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: Re: [Rosegarden-user] thoughts on Openoctave Midi?
From: Lorenzo <lsutton@...>
To: Brett McCoy <idragosani@...>
Cc: rosegarden-user@..., "D. Michael McIntyre"
<michael.mcintyre@...>
Date: 09/16/09 01:56

> Hi all,
>
> I guess my previous message might have given a wrong impression.
> I am no way an anti-midi, 'pen and paper' fundamentalist, vice versa I
> fully appreciate the potential of midi, which although nearly 30 years
> old is still current and useful in many situations: I myself used it
> in many situation and find it invaluable for the non-John Williams
> musician who can't afford the luxury of just writing and having a full
> orchestra at his will.
> Nor I ignore the differences in approach and issues related to the
> /rendering/ of a piece using midi - see my message on soundfonts :),
> especially being a guitarist I know the abyss between writing a guitar
> score and having it rendered /decently/ by midi - a real challenge.
>
> That said, I still find notation valuable during the creation,
> sketching, 'improvising with the score' process (for 'Western Tonal
> Music' of course), and would assume that although perfectible one
> could simply take the notation features of Rosegarden as is (currently
> very good IMHO) and focus on other parts. Of course I'm not a
> developer nor an expert of big software projects, so I'm not sure how
> a forking process really work and how this would impact on the
> development.

I guess it becomes a matter of having no one wanting to work on it. In
the RG camp no one wanted to put much into the matrix editor and in the
Open Octave camp no one wanted to put much into notation.


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[david-602]

Christopher Cherrett wrote:

> -------- Original Message  --------
> Subject: Re: [Rosegarden-user] thoughts on Openoctave Midi?
> From: Lorenzo <lsutton@...>
> To: Brett McCoy <idragosani@...>
> Cc: rosegarden-user@..., "D. Michael McIntyre"
> <michael.mcintyre@...>
> Date: 09/16/09 01:56
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I guess my previous message might have given a wrong impression.
>> I am no way an anti-midi, 'pen and paper' fundamentalist, vice versa I
>> fully appreciate the potential of midi, which although nearly 30 years
>> old is still current and useful in many situations: I myself used it
>> in many situation and find it invaluable for the non-John Williams
>> musician who can't afford the luxury of just writing and having a full
>> orchestra at his will.
>> Nor I ignore the differences in approach and issues related to the
>> /rendering/ of a piece using midi - see my message on soundfonts :),
>> especially being a guitarist I know the abyss between writing a guitar
>> score and having it rendered /decently/ by midi - a real challenge.
>>
>> That said, I still find notation valuable during the creation,
>> sketching, 'improvising with the score' process (for 'Western Tonal
>> Music' of course), and would assume that although perfectible one
>> could simply take the notation features of Rosegarden as is (currently
>> very good IMHO) and focus on other parts. Of course I'm not a
>> developer nor an expert of big software projects, so I'm not sure how
>> a forking process really work and how this would impact on the
>> development.
> I guess it becomes a matter of having no one wanting to work on it. In
> the RG camp no one wanted to put much into the matrix editor and in the
> Open Octave camp no one wanted to put much into notation.

Sounds like profitable points where the two teams could collaborate.
Perhaps each could use the work the other put into their pieces?

--
David
gnome@...
authenticity, honesty, community

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[Clem, Brian T.]

I have no time to babysit a distro. Call me harsh but if people want to
make serious music they must get serious about their computer. My
machine is very tweaked because without it things just don't work right.
I want a minimalistic install with no fluff. This machine is for just
making music. Not video games, youtube, listening to my favorite tunes.
If you try to do everything on one machine you end up with a machine
that you cannot count on daily for get up and go operations.


 STG 2.02 was a music based distro.  It was very nice to have such an environment that 'just worked' every time.   AVLinux is a modern day version.  

QUESTION 1:  Can your tweaked distro be remasteredsys'ed?  

AVLinux has this feature and is amazing.  AVLinux  uses the stable branch of Debian but I am not sure how it stacks up against Gentoo.  

Brian Clem

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[Christopher Cherrett]

-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: Re: [Rosegarden-user] thoughts on Openoctave Midi?
From: david <gnome@...>
To: rosegarden-user <rosegarden-user@...>
Date: 09/16/09 04:26

> Christopher Cherrett wrote:
>  
>> -------- Original Message  --------
>> Subject: Re: [Rosegarden-user] thoughts on Openoctave Midi?
>> From: Lorenzo <lsutton@...>
>> To: Brett McCoy <idragosani@...>
>> Cc: rosegarden-user@..., "D. Michael McIntyre"
>> <michael.mcintyre@...>
>> Date: 09/16/09 01:56
>>    
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I guess my previous message might have given a wrong impression.
>>> I am no way an anti-midi, 'pen and paper' fundamentalist, vice versa I
>>> fully appreciate the potential of midi, which although nearly 30 years
>>> old is still current and useful in many situations: I myself used it
>>> in many situation and find it invaluable for the non-John Williams
>>> musician who can't afford the luxury of just writing and having a full
>>> orchestra at his will.
>>> Nor I ignore the differences in approach and issues related to the
>>> /rendering/ of a piece using midi - see my message on soundfonts :),
>>> especially being a guitarist I know the abyss between writing a guitar
>>> score and having it rendered /decently/ by midi - a real challenge.
>>>
>>> That said, I still find notation valuable during the creation,
>>> sketching, 'improvising with the score' process (for 'Western Tonal
>>> Music' of course), and would assume that although perfectible one
>>> could simply take the notation features of Rosegarden as is (currently
>>> very good IMHO) and focus on other parts. Of course I'm not a
>>> developer nor an expert of big software projects, so I'm not sure how
>>> a forking process really work and how this would impact on the
>>> development.
>>>      
>> I guess it becomes a matter of having no one wanting to work on it. In
>> the RG camp no one wanted to put much into the matrix editor and in the
>> Open Octave camp no one wanted to put much into notation.
>>    
>
> Sounds like profitable points where the two teams could collaborate.
> Perhaps each could use the work the other put into their pieces?
>
>  

The trick has been convincing the other that they have worthy features.


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[James Warden]

Hi all,

I use KDE 4.3 but could compile OO easily. It works rather nice.

I like the focus on the matrix editor as I am illiterate when it comes to reading notes, working with scores, etc. So for me, who work by ears all the time, the OO functionality is what I need.

However, I cannot say the keyboard shortcuts are friendly with KDE4. If I want to remove tracks, in RG I used to Ctrl-D. In OO, I have to use F5 + mouse clicking on a popup menu and even then, I had a freeze when it reached the deletion of audio tracks. There's no other way by default. Maybe it is customizable but I did not work with OO long enough. What I like is that I could import RG files (1.7.3) into it and that pressing the space bar STOPS the playback ;) Of course, it can do much more but a small detail like this is cool as it is a default functionality in many apps: space-bar = start / stop transport :)

I encourage the OO devs to continue the effort. There are some quirks though, but maybe it has to do with KDE4 (splash screen not disappearing: thanks for the nosplash option! sequencer still active by default - the nofork option should be the default but maybe it's just me who likes it like that). I also really like the nosequencer mode, does not depend on jack, etc. But maybe RG was providing this too, I never tried RG without jack.

One thing that would be nice: start OO without ANY track. Where is the default template and how can I modify it ?

Anyway, I like this project :)

J.

--- On Wed, 9/16/09, Christopher Cherrett <stuff@...> wrote:

> From: Christopher Cherrett <stuff@...>
> Subject: Re: [Rosegarden-user] thoughts on Openoctave Midi?
> To: gnome@...
> Cc: "rosegarden-user" <rosegarden-user@...>
> Date: Wednesday, September 16, 2009, 4:21 PM
> -------- Original Message 
> --------
> Subject: Re: [Rosegarden-user] thoughts on Openoctave
> Midi?
> From: david <gnome@...>
> To: rosegarden-user <rosegarden-user@...>
> Date: 09/16/09 04:26
> > Christopher Cherrett wrote:
> >   
> >> -------- Original Message  --------
> >> Subject: Re: [Rosegarden-user] thoughts on
> Openoctave Midi?
> >> From: Lorenzo <lsutton@...>
> >> To: Brett McCoy <idragosani@...>
> >> Cc: rosegarden-user@...,
> "D. Michael McIntyre"
> >> <michael.mcintyre@...>
> >> Date: 09/16/09 01:56
> >>     
> >>> Hi all,
> >>>
> >>> I guess my previous message might have given a
> wrong impression.
> >>> I am no way an anti-midi, 'pen and paper'
> fundamentalist, vice versa I
> >>> fully appreciate the potential of midi, which
> although nearly 30 years
> >>> old is still current and useful in many
> situations: I myself used it
> >>> in many situation and find it invaluable for
> the non-John Williams
> >>> musician who can't afford the luxury of just
> writing and having a full
> >>> orchestra at his will.
> >>> Nor I ignore the differences in approach and
> issues related to the
> >>> /rendering/ of a piece using midi - see my
> message on soundfonts :),
> >>> especially being a guitarist I know the abyss
> between writing a guitar
> >>> score and having it rendered /decently/ by
> midi - a real challenge.
> >>>
> >>> That said, I still find notation valuable
> during the creation,
> >>> sketching, 'improvising with the score'
> process (for 'Western Tonal
> >>> Music' of course), and would assume that
> although perfectible one
> >>> could simply take the notation features of
> Rosegarden as is (currently
> >>> very good IMHO) and focus on other parts. Of
> course I'm not a
> >>> developer nor an expert of big software
> projects, so I'm not sure how
> >>> a forking process really work and how this
> would impact on the
> >>> development.
> >>>       
> >> I guess it becomes a matter of having no one
> wanting to work on it. In
> >> the RG camp no one wanted to put much into the
> matrix editor and in the
> >> Open Octave camp no one wanted to put much into
> notation.
> >>     
> >
> > Sounds like profitable points where the two teams
> could collaborate.
> > Perhaps each could use the work the other put into
> their pieces?
> >
> >   
> The trick has been convincing the other that they have
> worthy features.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer
> Conference in SF, CA
> is the only developer event you need to attend this year.
> Jumpstart your
> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to
> market and stay
> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009.
> Register now!
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> Rosegarden-user@...
> - use the link below to unsubscribe
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[Christopher Cherrett]

-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: Re: [Rosegarden-user] thoughts on Openoctave Midi?
From: James Warden <warjamy@...>
To: rosegarden-user <rosegarden-user@...>
Date: 09/17/09 03:07
> Hi all,
>
> I use KDE 4.3 but could compile OO easily. It works rather nice.
>
> I like the focus on the matrix editor as I am illiterate when it comes to reading notes, working with scores, etc. So for me, who work by ears all the time, the OO functionality is what I need.
>
> However, I cannot say the keyboard shortcuts are friendly with KDE4. If I want to remove tracks, in RG I used to Ctrl-D. In OO, I have to use F5 + mouse clicking on a popup menu and even then, I had a freeze when it reached the deletion of audio tracks. There's no other way by default. Maybe it is customizable but I did not work with OO long enough. What I like is that I could import RG files (1.7.3) into it and that pressing the space bar STOPS the playback ;) Of course, it can do much more but a small detail like this is cool as it is a default functionality in many apps: space-bar = start / stop transport :)
>  
Use Ctrl+F5 and arrow keys with enter. We consolidated the tools into
menus so it was easy to remember. Instead of having to remember a key
for add track, delete track, and so on, you just have to remember the one.

Audio is on it's way out of OOMidi. We are using Ardour for that. We
wanted to focus on one thing and do it well and that is the matrix
editor. I would not count on audio always working in OOMidi, it will not
last long I think.

One of the side effects of removing the audio stuff and adding solo per
track is when you add and delete tracks sometimes it does not render the
change. I will have to get to that some time.
> I encourage the OO devs to continue the effort. There are some quirks though, but maybe it has to do with KDE4 (splash screen not disappearing: thanks for the nosplash option! sequencer still active by default - the nofork option should be the default but maybe it's just me who likes it like that). I also really like the nosequencer mode, does not depend on jack, etc. But maybe RG was providing this too, I never tried RG without jack.
>
> One thing that would be nice: start OO without ANY track. Where is the default template and how can I modify it ?
>  
You can change the studio to anything you like and save as default studio.
> Anyway, I like this project :)
>  
Great!
> J.
>
>  


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