tmux(1) in base

[Ed Schouten-3]

Hi all,

At the DevSummit in Cambridge we briefly discussed including tmux(1) in
the base system. We recently had window(1) there, but unfortunately
window(1) was a very limited tool, compared to tools like screen(1) and
tmux(1). Why tmux(1) and not screen(1)? Well, simple. The first has a
better license and very active maintenance.

I was talking with the author on IRC the other day and it seemed like I
spoke with him at a fortunate moment, because he was just about to
release version 1.0. I think it would be nice to import this into HEAD,
which means FreeBSD 9.0 (maybe 8.1?) will include it by default.

How to test tmux in base:

- Download this tarball and extract it to contrib/tmux:
  http://downloads.sourceforge.net/tmux/tmux-1.0.tar.gz
- Apply the following patch:
  http://80386.nl/pub/tmux.diff

Comments?

--
 Ed Schouten <ed@...>
 WWW: http://80386.nl/

[Roman Divacky]

On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 01:26:57PM +0200, Ed Schouten wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> At the DevSummit in Cambridge we briefly discussed including tmux(1) in
> the base system. We recently had window(1) there, but unfortunately
> window(1) was a very limited tool, compared to tools like screen(1) and
> tmux(1). Why tmux(1) and not screen(1)? Well, simple. The first has a
> better license and very active maintenance.
>
> I was talking with the author on IRC the other day and it seemed like I
> spoke with him at a fortunate moment, because he was just about to
> release version 1.0. I think it would be nice to import this into HEAD,
> which means FreeBSD 9.0 (maybe 8.1?) will include it by default.
>
> How to test tmux in base:
>
> - Download this tarball and extract it to contrib/tmux:
>   http://downloads.sourceforge.net/tmux/tmux-1.0.tar.gz
> - Apply the following patch:
>   http://80386.nl/pub/tmux.diff
>
> Comments?

can tmux be configured to be 100% compatible with screen? if so
are we going to ship with such a config on default?
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[Ed Schouten-3]

* Roman Divacky <rdivacky@...> wrote:
> can tmux be configured to be 100% compatible with screen? if so
> are we going to ship with such a config on default?

Well, we could ship a screen-like config in /usr/share/examples, but in
my opinion we shouldn't enable this by default. It only makes it more
confusing when people switch to different operating systems that don't
use this config. I do think tmux's use of ^B instead of ^A by default is
a bit awkward...

--
 Ed Schouten <ed@...>
 WWW: http://80386.nl/

[Garrett Wollman-7]

In article <20090921112657.GW95398@...>, Ed Schouten writes:

>At the DevSummit in Cambridge we briefly discussed including tmux(1) in
>the base system. We recently had window(1) there, but unfortunately
>window(1) was a very limited tool, compared to tools like screen(1) and
>tmux(1). Why tmux(1) and not screen(1)? Well, simple. The first has a
>better license and very active maintenance.

Can you explain why any such utility needs to be in the base system?
I'm not seeing it.  We have enough things in the base that most users
will never use as it is.

-GAWollman
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[Coleman Kane-4]

On Mon, 2009-09-21 at 13:35 +0200, Ed Schouten wrote:

> * Roman Divacky <rdivacky@...> wrote:
> > can tmux be configured to be 100% compatible with screen? if so
> > are we going to ship with such a config on default?
>
> Well, we could ship a screen-like config in /usr/share/examples, but in
> my opinion we shouldn't enable this by default. It only makes it more
> confusing when people switch to different operating systems that don't
> use this config. I do think tmux's use of ^B instead of ^A by default is
> a bit awkward...
>

Funny. I always considered (and still consider, but live with it)
screen's use of ^A to be quite awkward and annoying, myself, since it
conflicts with using ^A for jump-to-start-of-line.

--
Coleman Kane

[Alfred Perlstein-2]

* Garrett Wollman <wollman@...> [090921 05:39] wrote:

> In article <20090921112657.GW95398@...>, Ed Schouten writes:
>
> >At the DevSummit in Cambridge we briefly discussed including tmux(1) in
> >the base system. We recently had window(1) there, but unfortunately
> >window(1) was a very limited tool, compared to tools like screen(1) and
> >tmux(1). Why tmux(1) and not screen(1)? Well, simple. The first has a
> >better license and very active maintenance.
>
> Can you explain why any such utility needs to be in the base system?
> I'm not seeing it.  We have enough things in the base that most users
> will never use as it is.

I think he already explained that it's supposedly much better than
window(1) with a kinder license than screen(1).

We really ought to ship with a screen(1)-like program.  hopefully
we can make it screen compat rather than having something people
are not familiar with in base.

Any chance in getting the author to go to ^A and be more "Screenish"
so people don't have to learn a new tool?  Honestly, if it's very
different, the people will just continue to install/use screen.

--
- Alfred Perlstein
.- AMA, VMOA #5191, 03 vmax, 92 gs500, 85 ch250
.- FreeBSD committer
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[Garrett Wollman-7]

In article <20090921130346.GY21946@...> you write:

>I think he already explained that it's supposedly much better than
>window(1) with a kinder license than screen(1).
>
>We really ought to ship with a screen(1)-like program.

sudo pkg_add -r screen

Problem solved.

-GAWollman
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[Pieter de Goeje]

On Monday 21 September 2009 14:37:46 Garrett Wollman wrote:

> In article <20090921112657.GW95398@...>, Ed Schouten writes:
>
> >At the DevSummit in Cambridge we briefly discussed including tmux(1) in
> >the base system. We recently had window(1) there, but unfortunately
> >window(1) was a very limited tool, compared to tools like screen(1) and
> >tmux(1). Why tmux(1) and not screen(1)? Well, simple. The first has a
> >better license and very active maintenance.
>
> Can you explain why any such utility needs to be in the base system?
> I'm not seeing it.  We have enough things in the base that most users
> will never use as it is.
>
> -GAWollman

I would very much like to see this in the base system, as screen is currently the first port I install on all systems I manage. Anything that takes more than one minute I run in screen, such as buildworld/kernel, installation of certain ports etc. If tmux was in the basesystem, I wouldn't have to extract or mount the ports directory before updating the system to the desired version of FreeBSD. Screen/tmux is especially important when such tasks are run remotely through SSH.

It could also be useful in single user mode when all you have is one console.

It would be even better if there was a hardlink from screen to tmux. It could then detect it was started as screen and use screen compatible mode ;-)

--
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[Joel Dahl]

Ed Schouten skrev:

> Hi all,
>
> At the DevSummit in Cambridge we briefly discussed including tmux(1) in
> the base system. We recently had window(1) there, but unfortunately
> window(1) was a very limited tool, compared to tools like screen(1) and
> tmux(1). Why tmux(1) and not screen(1)? Well, simple. The first has a
> better license and very active maintenance.
>
> I was talking with the author on IRC the other day and it seemed like I
> spoke with him at a fortunate moment, because he was just about to
> release version 1.0. I think it would be nice to import this into HEAD,
> which means FreeBSD 9.0 (maybe 8.1?) will include it by default.
>
> How to test tmux in base:
>
> - Download this tarball and extract it to contrib/tmux:
>   http://downloads.sourceforge.net/tmux/tmux-1.0.tar.gz
> - Apply the following patch:
>   http://80386.nl/pub/tmux.diff
>
> Comments?

Yes, please!

Screen has almost always been the first thing I install on new machines, but
recently I've been switching more and more machines over to tmux instead.
Having it in base would be a great addition.

--
Joel
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[miwi-2]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 01:26:57PM +0200, Ed Schouten wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> At the DevSummit in Cambridge we briefly discussed including tmux(1) in
> the base system. We recently had window(1) there, but unfortunately
> window(1) was a very limited tool, compared to tools like screen(1) and
> tmux(1). Why tmux(1) and not screen(1)? Well, simple. The first has a
> better license and very active maintenance.
>
> I was talking with the author on IRC the other day and it seemed like I
> spoke with him at a fortunate moment, because he was just about to
> release version 1.0. I think it would be nice to import this into HEAD,
> which means FreeBSD 9.0 (maybe 8.1?) will include it by default.
>
> How to test tmux in base:
>
> - Download this tarball and extract it to contrib/tmux:
>   http://downloads.sourceforge.net/tmux/tmux-1.0.tar.gz
> - Apply the following patch:
>   http://80386.nl/pub/tmux.diff
>
> Comments?

IŽd also like to see that in src.

>
> --
>  Ed Schouten <ed@...>
>  WWW: http://80386.nl/



- --

+-----------------------+-------------------------------+
|  PGP    : 0xB1E6FCE9  |  Jabber : miwi(at)BSDCrew.de  |
|  Skype  : splash_111  |  Mail   : miwi(at)FreeBSD.org |
+-----------------------+-------------------------------+
| Mess with the Best, Die like the Rest! |
+-----------------------+-------------------------------+
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (FreeBSD)

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=RXzT
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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[Steve Kargl]

On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 01:26:57PM +0200, Ed Schouten wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> At the DevSummit in Cambridge we briefly discussed including tmux(1) in
> the base system. We recently had window(1) there, but unfortunately
> window(1) was a very limited tool, compared to tools like screen(1) and
> tmux(1). Why tmux(1) and not screen(1)? Well, simple. The first has a
> better license and very active maintenance.
>
> I was talking with the author on IRC the other day and it seemed like I
> spoke with him at a fortunate moment, because he was just about to
> release version 1.0. I think it would be nice to import this into HEAD,
> which means FreeBSD 9.0 (maybe 8.1?) will include it by default.
>
> How to test tmux in base:
>
> - Download this tarball and extract it to contrib/tmux:
>   http://downloads.sourceforge.net/tmux/tmux-1.0.tar.gz
> - Apply the following patch:
>   http://80386.nl/pub/tmux.diff
>
> Comments?
>

I've used FreeBSD since it was known as 386bsd+patchkit.  In that
time, I've used window/screen exactly zero times.  IMHO, neither
screen nor tmux should be in the base system.  These are easily
installed from the Ports Collection.

--
Steve
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[Alfred Perlstein-2]

* Garrett Wollman <wollman@...> [090921 06:10] wrote:

> In article <20090921130346.GY21946@...> you write:
>
> >I think he already explained that it's supposedly much better than
> >window(1) with a kinder license than screen(1).
> >
> >We really ought to ship with a screen(1)-like program.
>
> sudo pkg_add -r screen
>
> Problem solved.

WORKS GREAT ESP WHEN NETWORK IS DOWN AND SOMEONE NEEDS MY HELP.

WORKS AWESOME ON REALLY OLD MACHINES WHERE PACKAGES NO LONGER
EXIST.

Note: Apple, which cares more about a usable userland unix than
we do at this time has screen installed in base as well.

--
- Alfred Perlstein
.- AMA, VMOA #5191, 03 vmax, 92 gs500, 85 ch250
.- FreeBSD committer
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[Joel Dahl]

Alfred Perlstein skrev:

> * Garrett Wollman <wollman@...> [090921 06:10] wrote:
>> In article <20090921130346.GY21946@...> you write:
>>
>>> I think he already explained that it's supposedly much better than
>>> window(1) with a kinder license than screen(1).
>>>
>>> We really ought to ship with a screen(1)-like program.
>> sudo pkg_add -r screen
>>
>> Problem solved.
>
> WORKS GREAT ESP WHEN NETWORK IS DOWN AND SOMEONE NEEDS MY HELP.
>
> WORKS AWESOME ON REALLY OLD MACHINES WHERE PACKAGES NO LONGER
> EXIST.
>
> Note: Apple, which cares more about a usable userland unix than
> we do at this time has screen installed in base as well.

OpenBSD has tmux in base...and I've seen discussions on the NetBSD lists about
importing tmux (as a window(1) replacement) into NetBSD base as well...  :-)

--
Joel
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[Alfred Perlstein-2]

* Joel Dahl <joel@...> [090921 09:17] wrote:

> Alfred Perlstein skrev:
> >* Garrett Wollman <wollman@...> [090921 06:10] wrote:
> >>In article <20090921130346.GY21946@...> you write:
> >>
> >>>I think he already explained that it's supposedly much better than
> >>>window(1) with a kinder license than screen(1).
> >>>
> >>>We really ought to ship with a screen(1)-like program.
> >>sudo pkg_add -r screen
> >>
> >>Problem solved.
> >
> >WORKS GREAT ESP WHEN NETWORK IS DOWN AND SOMEONE NEEDS MY HELP.
> >
> >WORKS AWESOME ON REALLY OLD MACHINES WHERE PACKAGES NO LONGER
> >EXIST.
> >
> >Note: Apple, which cares more about a usable userland unix than
> >we do at this time has screen installed in base as well.
>
> OpenBSD has tmux in base...and I've seen discussions on the NetBSD lists
> about importing tmux (as a window(1) replacement) into NetBSD base as
> well...  :-)

I dunno Joel, we wouldn't want to get crazy and ship a system that
was usable out of the box, I'd like to go back to a Solaris
circa 1999 like system, y'know, kernel+/bin/sh, don't need much
more than that y'know...

--
- Alfred Perlstein
.- AMA, VMOA #5191, 03 vmax, 92 gs500, 85 ch250
.- FreeBSD committer
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[Steve Kargl]

On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 09:19:46AM -0700, Alfred Perlstein wrote:

> * Joel Dahl <joel@...> [090921 09:17] wrote:
> > Alfred Perlstein skrev:
> > >* Garrett Wollman <wollman@...> [090921 06:10] wrote:
> > >>In article <20090921130346.GY21946@...> you write:
> > >>
> > >>>I think he already explained that it's supposedly much better than
> > >>>window(1) with a kinder license than screen(1).
> > >>>
> > >>>We really ought to ship with a screen(1)-like program.
> > >>sudo pkg_add -r screen
> > >>
> > >>Problem solved.
> > >
> > >WORKS GREAT ESP WHEN NETWORK IS DOWN AND SOMEONE NEEDS MY HELP.
> > >
> > >WORKS AWESOME ON REALLY OLD MACHINES WHERE PACKAGES NO LONGER
> > >EXIST.
> > >
> > >Note: Apple, which cares more about a usable userland unix than
> > >we do at this time has screen installed in base as well.
> >
> > OpenBSD has tmux in base...and I've seen discussions on the NetBSD lists
> > about importing tmux (as a window(1) replacement) into NetBSD base as
> > well...  :-)
>
> I dunno Joel, we wouldn't want to get crazy and ship a system that
> was usable out of the box, I'd like to go back to a Solaris
> circa 1999 like system, y'know, kernel+/bin/sh, don't need much
> more than that y'know...
>

When you install the box, install the port.  This isn't rocket
science.

Can we also add perl back to the base system?  It is much more
useful than tmux/screen.  

--
Steve
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[Alfred Perlstein-2]

* Steve Kargl <sgk@...> [090921 09:30] wrote:

> On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 09:19:46AM -0700, Alfred Perlstein wrote:
> > * Joel Dahl <joel@...> [090921 09:17] wrote:
> > > Alfred Perlstein skrev:
> > > >* Garrett Wollman <wollman@...> [090921 06:10] wrote:
> > > >>In article <20090921130346.GY21946@...> you write:
> > > >>
> > > >>>I think he already explained that it's supposedly much better than
> > > >>>window(1) with a kinder license than screen(1).
> > > >>>
> > > >>>We really ought to ship with a screen(1)-like program.
> > > >>sudo pkg_add -r screen
> > > >>
> > > >>Problem solved.
> > > >
> > > >WORKS GREAT ESP WHEN NETWORK IS DOWN AND SOMEONE NEEDS MY HELP.
> > > >
> > > >WORKS AWESOME ON REALLY OLD MACHINES WHERE PACKAGES NO LONGER
> > > >EXIST.
> > > >
> > > >Note: Apple, which cares more about a usable userland unix than
> > > >we do at this time has screen installed in base as well.
> > >
> > > OpenBSD has tmux in base...and I've seen discussions on the NetBSD lists
> > > about importing tmux (as a window(1) replacement) into NetBSD base as
> > > well...  :-)
> >
> > I dunno Joel, we wouldn't want to get crazy and ship a system that
> > was usable out of the box, I'd like to go back to a Solaris
> > circa 1999 like system, y'know, kernel+/bin/sh, don't need much
> > more than that y'know...
> >
>
> When you install the box, install the port.  This isn't rocket
> science.
>
> Can we also add perl back to the base system?  It is much more
> useful than tmux/screen.  

1) Perl is dead.
2) We could add something like ruby or python if someone could
get the bootstrap working without build nicely.

--
- Alfred Perlstein
.- AMA, VMOA #5191, 03 vmax, 92 gs500, 85 ch250
.- FreeBSD committer
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[Steve Kargl]

On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 09:34:40AM -0700, Alfred Perlstein wrote:

> * Steve Kargl <sgk@...> [090921 09:30] wrote:
> > On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 09:19:46AM -0700, Alfred Perlstein wrote:
> > >
> > > I dunno Joel, we wouldn't want to get crazy and ship a system that
> > > was usable out of the box, I'd like to go back to a Solaris
> > > circa 1999 like system, y'know, kernel+/bin/sh, don't need much
> > > more than that y'know...
> > >
> >
> > When you install the box, install the port.  This isn't rocket
> > science.
> >
> > Can we also add perl back to the base system?  It is much more
> > useful than tmux/screen.  
>
> 1) Perl is dead.
> 2) We could add something like ruby or python if someone could
> get the bootstrap working without build nicely.
>

It was a rhetorical question, Alfred.  BTW, Perl is far from dead.
It appears none of the customers you support use SpamAssassin,
apache, teTeX, jdk16, gtk, or any number of other ports that list
perl as a dependence.

troutmask:kargl[206] pkg_info -R perl-5.8.9_3 | grep -v p5- | wc -l
      63
troutmask:kargl[208] pkg_info -R perl-5.8.9_3 | wc -l
      97

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[Julian Elischer]

Steve Kargl wrote:
 > On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 01:26:57PM +0200, Ed Schouten wrote:
 >> Hi all,
 >>
 >> At the DevSummit in Cambridge we briefly discussed including
tmux(1) in
 >> the base system. We recently had window(1) there, but unfortunately
 >> window(1) was a very limited tool, compared to tools like
screen(1) and
 >> tmux(1). Why tmux(1) and not screen(1)? Well, simple. The first has a
 >> better license and very active maintenance.
 >>
>> I was talking with the author on IRC the other day and it seemed
>> like I spoke with him at a fortunate moment, because he was just
>> about to release version 1.0. I think it would be nice to import
>> this into HEAD, which means FreeBSD 9.0 (maybe 8.1?) will include
>> it by default.
 >>
 >> How to test tmux in base:
 >>
 >> - Download this tarball and extract it to contrib/tmux:
 >>   http://downloads.sourceforge.net/tmux/tmux-1.0.tar.gz
 >> - Apply the following patch:
 >>   http://80386.nl/pub/tmux.diff
 >>
 >> Comments?
 >>
 >
 > I've used FreeBSD since it was known as 386bsd+patchkit.  In that
 > time, I've used window/screen exactly zero times.  IMHO, neither
 > screen nor tmux should be in the base system.  These are easily
 > installed from the Ports Collection.

I always use screen.
I used to use window sometimes but screen was better.

While it'd be noce to have it in the base system, it's always been ok
for me to have it as a port and it probably can continue to be there.

I'm not sure that putting tmux in the base system is worth while.
It's being activly developed which means that we'll always be out
of date.

for Alfred's support point.. to watch soemoe else for support reasons
I use watch -w


Julian



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[Alexander Kabaev-3]

On Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:35:56 +0200
Ed Schouten <ed@...> wrote:

> * Roman Divacky <rdivacky@...> wrote:
> > can tmux be configured to be 100% compatible with screen? if so
> > are we going to ship with such a config on default?
>
> Well, we could ship a screen-like config in /usr/share/examples, but
> in my opinion we shouldn't enable this by default. It only makes it
> more confusing when people switch to different operating systems that
> don't use this config. I do think tmux's use of ^B instead of ^A by
> default is a bit awkward...
>

We have many, many useful programs in ports. Please let tmux be one of
them. I use screen on every system I can access too and having it in
ports was never too much of a nuisance.

My $0.02.

--
Alexander Kabaev

[Giorgos Keramidas-2]

On Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:35:56 +0200, Ed Schouten <ed@...> wrote:
> * Roman Divacky <rdivacky@...> wrote:
>> can tmux be configured to be 100% compatible with screen? if so
>> are we going to ship with such a config on default?
>
> Well, we could ship a screen-like config in /usr/share/examples, but in
> my opinion we shouldn't enable this by default. It only makes it more
> confusing when people switch to different operating systems that don't
> use this config. I do think tmux's use of ^B instead of ^A by default is
> a bit awkward...

^A is rather comfortable with my Caps Lock key swapped with Ctrl.  If
the escape character of tmux can be configured to be ^A in the personal
startup configuration of each user, the awkwardness of ^B is really a
very minor issue.

IMO, a sample screen-like config in /usr/share/examples will go a long
way towards making tmux in the base system a comfortable and viable
screen alternative :)