tx_community and tx_party

[David Toshack]

Hi guys,

Love your work. I think the need for this community extension is huge.
Am I right to assume this extension is planned to be "the" community
extension? ... as in to some sort of "official" capacity?

There have been many extensions in the past to handle user and community
based features. I know its still early days but it would be great to
have more community type development in coordination with the ECT.

One case in point is the current wec_people extension which was
originally developed to be "the" people and organization model for
TYPO3. Its currently hosted with the Web Empowered Church but they have
offered to put it on forge and change it back to the original and more
official tx_party extension if there is enough support from the TYPO3
community.

I think these two extensions would be a great combination. Has there
been any thought into using and extending the tx_party model?


Cheers,
David
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[Ingo Renner-2]

David Toshack wrote:

Hi David,

> I think these two extensions would be a great combination. Has there
> been any thought into using and extending the tx_party model?


not really, but I think that these two are some different things anyways.


best
Ingo

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Ingo Renner
TYPO3 Core Developer, Release Manager TYPO3 4.2
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[David Toshack]

Ingo Renner wrote:

> David Toshack wrote:
>
> Hi David,
>
>> I think these two extensions would be a great combination. Has there
>> been any thought into using and extending the tx_party model?
>
>
> not really, but I think that these two are some different things anyways.
>
>
> best
> Ingo
>

Hi Ingo,

As I see it, tx_party was built from the OASIS Party standard with the
aim of developing global and generic industry standards for managing
"Party Centric Information". (Party as in people or organizations.)

IMHO, in an ideal world any new extension that manipulates people or
organizational data should use the party extension. Either as is or by
extending it. Unfortunately we don't live in an ideal world but I'd like
to help with small steps to head in that direction. Or at least to give
it some good thought.

The party extension has been designed to manage relationships to other
parties and personal information though, so it shouldn't take too much
extending to be a perfect match to the person related community
requirements.

Both these projects are in their infancy so it would be a great time to
grow them together for a more future proof party/relationship centric
model that many TYPO3 extensions could make use of.

What do you think?


Cheers,
David
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[Ingo Renner-2]

David Toshack wrote:

> What do you think?

that this is not happening, as already said, to me those are two
different things.


Ingo

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[David Toshack]

Ingo Renner wrote:

> David Toshack wrote:
>
>> What do you think?
>
> that this is not happening, as already said, to me those are two
> different things.
>
>
> Ingo
>

I agree with you. To me those are two different things too. Both models
do overlap greatly though, and there are many advantages in extending
tx_party rather than having to recreate the wheel in either extension.

Enough advantages I would think to have it open for discussion.

Forgive me if this isn't the case but I was hoping tx_community would be
"the" TYPO3 community extension and not just another one of the many.

I don't mean to suggest extra work. Ok, I do :-) ... but I'm also
putting my hand up to help. In any case, for the sake of TYPO3 keeping
up with this social networking revolution, I do believe "party centric
information" is a big part of this extension and its worth an open
discussion rather than such an abrupt reply.


Cheers,
David
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[Ingo Renner-2]

David Toshack wrote:

Hi David,

> Forgive me if this isn't the case but I was hoping tx_community would be
> "the" TYPO3 community extension and not just another one of the many.

who said it's not going to be "the" community extension of TYPO3?

> I don't mean to suggest extra work. Ok, I do :-) ...

right ;)

> but I'm also
> putting my hand up to help. In any case, for the sake of TYPO3 keeping
> up with this social networking revolution, I do believe "party centric
> information" is a big part of this extension and its worth an open
> discussion rather than such an abrupt reply.

I really don't believe in"party" yet even though I know it's a published
standard... It's just not wide spread enough yet to justify the effort
integrating it. If there's a point in time when it becomes wide spread
enough one could still do something about it like developing an exporter
or a connector or something the like.

What I see as a better fit for that community/social network stuff are
standards like OpenSocial, OpenDataDefinition and their friends. Those
are on the roadmap for later versions BTW.


best
Ingo

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TYPO3 Core Developer, Release Manager TYPO3 4.2
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[David Toshack]

Ingo Renner wrote:
> David Toshack wrote:
>
> Hi David,
>
>> Forgive me if this isn't the case but I was hoping tx_community would
>> be "the" TYPO3 community extension and not just another one of the many.
>
> who said it's not going to be "the" community extension of TYPO3?

I guess that was a bit of a sarcastic stab at your "this won't be
happening" line without discussion. I apologise for that.

What's been done so far is actually very impressive and IMHO definitely
does deserve the merit of "the" community extension. I have been eagerly
updating my svn checkout quite regularly to follow its progress.

>
>> I don't mean to suggest extra work. Ok, I do :-) ...
>
> right ;)

lol  sorry about that. But I'd like to offer my help if I may.

>
>> but I'm also putting my hand up to help. In any case, for the sake of
>> TYPO3 keeping up with this social networking revolution, I do believe
>> "party centric information" is a big part of this extension and its
>> worth an open discussion rather than such an abrupt reply.
>
> I really don't believe in"party" yet even though I know it's a published
> standard... It's just not wide spread enough yet to justify the effort
> integrating it. If there's a point in time when it becomes wide spread
> enough one could still do something about it like developing an exporter
> or a connector or something the like.

True. Wide spread implementations are a great reason for using
standards. The other big advantage though is that so much thought and
consideration has gone into such a model that it has become very stable
and very flexible.

Agreed though, it would take quite some effort to integrate. Maybe more
effort than benefit for now. Particularly since the tx_party
implementation is also still in early stages and that OpenSocial has a
nice semi-standard model to work from.

>
> What I see as a better fit for that community/social network stuff are
> standards like OpenSocial, OpenDataDefinition and their friends. Those
> are on the roadmap for later versions BTW.

Now you're talking! These are the standards that will really make a
difference in social portability! I was going to bring up OpenSocial in
my last post but didn't want to come across as some sort of standards
nazi after my tx_party rant  :-)

Matter of fact, I already see a lot of similarities between Apache
Shindig[1] and tx_community. Partuza[2] is a great example of Shindig in
action. Is that where you see tx_community headed on the roadmap for
later versions? A TYPO3 implementation of Shindig?

OpenDataDefinition I'm not so familiar with but I came across the ODD
implementation Elgg[3] recently and it all sounds pretty interesting.
APML[4] would also be a good portability standard to support through the
Engagd SDK[5]. Attention Profiling IMHO is where lies the real magic for
monetising these social networks. But that is probably getting a bit out
of scope for now.

All good stuff Ingo. I'm really glad you brought up OpenSocial and I'm
really glad the project is in such good hands.

I do have a few questions about how much you envision OpenSocial being a
part of tx_community. Shindig's main application focus is of course the
client-side google gadgets. Which looks to be not the case for tx_community.

The new beta RESTful[6] and RCP[7] Open Social APIs help a little with
gadget access from the server-side but they're still essencially
client-side applications. Are you considering both a TYPO3 server-side
MVC approach to widget building _and_ support for client-side google
gadgets? ... Or are you considering one or the other? ... Or is it too
soon for these sorts of questions?


Cheers,
David


[1] http://incubator.apache.org/shindig
[2] http://code.google.com/p/partuza
[3] http://elgg.org
[4] http://apml.org
[5] http://engagd.com
[6]
http://www.opensocial.org/Technical-Resources/opensocial-spec-v081/restful-protocol
[7]
http://www.opensocial.org/Technical-Resources/opensocial-spec-v081/rpc-protocol
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[Ingo Renner-2]

David Toshack wrote:

Hi David,

> Matter of fact, I already see a lot of similarities between Apache
> Shindig[1] and tx_community. Partuza[2] is a great example of Shindig in
> action. Is that where you see tx_community headed on the roadmap for
> later versions? A TYPO3 implementation of Shindig?

didn't hear about these yet, but I'll have a look at them. Thanks for
pointing to them!

> The new beta RESTful[6] and RCP[7] Open Social APIs help a little with
> gadget access from the server-side but they're still essencially
> client-side applications. Are you considering both a TYPO3 server-side
> MVC approach to widget building _and_ support for client-side google
> gadgets? ... Or are you considering one or the other? ... Or is it too
> soon for these sorts of questions?

this is all not decided yet, it's all still quite alpha although it's
working quite good already. Many essential things like messaging, a wall
and stuff like that are missing...


Ingo

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