valves gasket ?

[POTIERj]

http://img188.imageshack.us/i/08112009035.jpg/

Engine 38 000 km, 1999, dark "stuff" on valves for cylinder 1 and 4, xhat do you think

[michael conatser]

I'd have to say looks like carbon build up , oil might be leaking past the rings or valve stems
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: POTIERj<mailto:potierj@...>
  To: TriumphTrophy@...<mailto:TriumphTrophy@...>
  Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 7:07 AM
  Subject: [TriumphTrophy] valves gasket ?


   
  http://img188.imageshack.us/i/08112009035.jpg/<http://img188.imageshack.us/i/08112009035.jpg/>

  Engine 38 000 km, 1999, dark "stuff" on valves for cylinder 1 and 4, xhat do you think



 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[philipwallington]

--- In TriumphTrophy@..., "POTIERj" <potierj@...> wrote:
>
> http://img188.imageshack.us/i/08112009035.jpg/
>
> Engine 38 000 km, 1999, dark "stuff" on valves for cylinder 1 and 4, xhat do you think
>
Certainly looks like burnt oil to me. If it's only 1 and 4 as you say then I would suspect the valve guide seals - there are only 2 ways oil vapour can get in there - via the carbs which would affect all the inlet tract and past individual valve stems, affecting only the cylinders with a problem.

2 questions - do you get a little smoke on overrun? Closed throttle and engine slowing creates the greatest vacuum loading on the stem seals. You'll often see the smoke when you open the throttle again as it clears the pipes. And are you burning much oil?

Not nice - but also not fatal - but it will mean head off and rebuild if the seals are bad. You can probably scrape most of it out as it won't normally be set solid - then run with it for a while and see how quicklty it builds up again.

Philip

[Jacques, Martin, VF-Group]

I agree also that it *looks* like burnt oil. Seems odd to me that a bike
would have valve problems on 4 inlet valves in just 38,000km however.
 
Any chance the bike has been overfilled with oil at some point? Just
wondering if the bike would dump the excess into the airbox and perhaps
a bike on its centrestand would then feed that oil back into only pots 1
& 4.
 
Clutching at straws really for an idea that may stop you having to tear
the bike down.
 
If it were me, and the bike was still running well, I'd be running a few
tanks of fuel additive designed to try and de-carbon an engine.
 

Martin



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Tom Miller-11]

The Haynes manual has pictures in the back of spark plugs with general problems. Mat black is most likly rich mixture and wet black is oil fouling. As each carb can be out of adjustment or leaking at the float, they may be the cause. Poor ignition (coil) seems to me to be the most likly cause leaving unburnt fuel to soot the valves and piston top - only if 1 and 4 are fired from the same coil and I havn't yet found that bit out.

Tom 1200 14,500 2002
     
_________________________________________________________________
New Windows 7: Simplify what you do everyday. Find the right PC for you.
http://www.microsoft.com/uk/windows/buy/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Jacques, Martin, VF-Group]

Tom,
 
1 & 4 are fired by the same coil on the 1200, and my mind was working
along similar lines yesterday before replying. However, I would imagine
unburnt fuel soot to look a little different (smooth, a more matt
finish) to the pictures the original poster included.
 
If it does turn out to be a simple case of a failing coil, then that
makes life a lot easier for the bike's owner. Based on my belief that
burnt oil and petrol look different on the back of a valve, my gut feel
is it is burnt oil, but I still think this may have come via the airbox
after overfilling rather than poor valve stem seals.
 
It has got me intrigued though ......
 

Martin



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[philipwallington]

Forgive me guys but aren't we looking at the inlet valves here? I can't think of a mechanism to let combustion products get back past the valves.

Unless the airbox and all 4 carbs are filthy with oil from the breather - then my money is still on leaking valve guides. I've seen similar deposits many times and it's always been that - albeit on much older engines - don't even ask !!!!

A smoke exhaust coming off overrun will give it away - but at 38k km - worrying.

Philip

[Bob Clark-2]

Personally, I'd suspect 2 (possibly 3) things working in tandem to give
you the problems.   I'd want to pull the spark plugs to look at them.
I'd also want to do a proper leak down compression check.  It's not one
single problem by itself.

1) Oil in the Breather from possibly overfilling or a hung float (at
some time) over filing the crankcase.

2) if the coils are original, yes a failing coil on #1 & 4 ( same coil
for both cylinders and a common demomiator) Replace with Nology's, as
there are too many who have had incomplete fuel charge burns to point in
this direction.  Combined with excess oil in the mix it would be even
harder for the stock coils to burn the charge.

3) Wrong heat range spark plugs

4) Carburetor set up

When was the last proper Valve adjustment done?  What is the history of
any previous valve adjustments?  What specific brand / Grade of oil has
always been run in the machine?  Certain oils will damage valve guide
seals  (Honda's were known for this as their rubber would swell and
become soft)  Does anyone have the data?

The Absolute LAST thing I would look at is pulling a head and doing a
Valve Job.

Has the machine ever been abused during it's life?  Does anyone really know?

Bob Clark
01 Sunset Red Trophy 1200
Jacksonville, FL / Augusta, GA




philipwallington wrote:

>  
>
>
>
> Forgive me guys but aren't we looking at the inlet valves here? I
> can't think of a mechanism to let combustion products get back past
> the valves.
>
> Unless the airbox and all 4 carbs are filthy with oil from the
> breather - then my money is still on leaking valve guides. I've seen
> similar deposits many times and it's always been that - albeit on much
> older engines - don't even ask !!!!
>
> A smoke exhaust coming off overrun will give it away - but at 38k km -
> worrying.
>
> Philip
>
>

[bodger barclay]

I wouldn't be totally worried (notwithstanding the other comments). The deposits are not cooked dry therefore I guess no more escaping gases than normal.  There has to be some loss of oil down the stem - or it would be running on no oil and is a design constraint of all valved engines.

Though if you had a 900 that would be one less cylinder to worry about....

POTIERj wrote:

http://img188.imageshack.us/i/08112009035.jpg/

Engine 38 000 km, 1999, dark "stuff" on valves for cylinder 1 and 4, xhat do you think

[POTIERj]

Thanks for your answers.
I add some precision.
It's a second hand, i just buy it few days ago.
The previous owner was a quiet driver and absolutely not a mechanic.
When He tried to start the bike it runs badly so the price drop down and I tried to make a good bargain. I owned a T1200 for 81 000 km so I I throught it was coils or pick or  fuel not coming down.
When I replaced the coils for nology I discovered leaking fule hose.
So I decide to  remove the 4 carbs and change air filter for a K&N.
I discovered the valve deposit and was rather afraid.
The oil is clean, not water/coolant in it.
Sparkplug,  1,2,3 black and deposit, 4 white and clean.
Deposit is not equal beteween the 2 vavles of cylinder 1 and 4, the outer the dirtier.
I haven't restared the bike as I  still waiting for the K&N

 

--- In TriumphTrophy@..., Robert <apsllp@...> wrote:

>
> Personally, I'd suspect 2 (possibly 3) things working in tandem to give
> you the problems.   I'd want to pull the spark plugs to look at them.
> I'd also want to do a proper leak down compression check.  It's not one
> single problem by itself.
>
> 1) Oil in the Breather from possibly overfilling or a hung float (at
> some time) over filing the crankcase.
>
> 2) if the coils are original, yes a failing coil on #1 & 4 ( same coil
> for both cylinders and a common demomiator) Replace with Nology's, as
> there are too many who have had incomplete fuel charge burns to point in
> this direction.  Combined with excess oil in the mix it would be even
> harder for the stock coils to burn the charge.
>
> 3) Wrong heat range spark plugs
>
> 4) Carburetor set up
>
> When was the last proper Valve adjustment done?  What is the history of
> any previous valve adjustments?  What specific brand / Grade of oil has
> always been run in the machine?  Certain oils will damage valve guide
> seals  (Honda's were known for this as their rubber would swell and
> become soft)  Does anyone have the data?
>
> The Absolute LAST thing I would look at is pulling a head and doing a
> Valve Job.
>
> Has the machine ever been abused during it's life?  Does anyone really know?
>
> Bob Clark
> 01 Sunset Red Trophy 1200
> Jacksonville, FL / Augusta, GA
>
>
>
>
> philipwallington wrote:
> >  
> >
> >
> >
> > Forgive me guys but aren't we looking at the inlet valves here? I
> > can't think of a mechanism to let combustion products get back past
> > the valves.
> >
> > Unless the airbox and all 4 carbs are filthy with oil from the
> > breather - then my money is still on leaking valve guides. I've seen
> > similar deposits many times and it's always been that - albeit on much
> > older engines - don't even ask !!!!
> >
> > A smoke exhaust coming off overrun will give it away - but at 38k km -
> > worrying.
> >
> > Philip
> >
> >
>

[Bob Clark-2]

I suspect that your changing the coils will help allot.  While you have the tank off, REPLACE the Spark Plugs and inspect all of the spark plug wires.  When you get the plugs out, look them over to see how they appear.  My guess is that 2 & 3 will be cleaner than 1&4.

Only after getting it back together will you be able to run it and then do another spark plug inspection. 

I would also suspect your valve clearances have not been properly checked and adjusted.  If you can do that you will be home free for a while.

To properly adjust the carbs will take a proper 4 probe gauge or better yet find a shop with a Dyno and Exhaust Gas analyzer.

My guess is the coils and spark plugs will put you on the right track.  If someone tried to run the bike with a bad coil the associated spark plugs will likely be fouled also. Spark Plugs are cheap.

Let us know how things work out.

Bob Clark
01 Sunset Red Trophy 1200
Jacksonville, FL

--- On Wed, 11/11/09, POTIERj <potierj@...> wrote:

From: POTIERj <potierj@...>
Subject: [TriumphTrophy] Re: valve deposits - multiple problems in tandem
To: TriumphTrophy@...
Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 4:33 PM







 



 


   
     
     
      Thanks for your answers.

I add some precision.

It's a second hand, i just buy it few days ago.

The previous owner was a quiet driver and absolutely not a mechanic.

When He tried to start the bike it runs badly so the price drop down and I tried to make a good bargain. I owned a T1200 for 81 000 km so I I throught it was coils or pick or  fuel not coming down.

When I replaced the coils for nology I discovered leaking fule hose.

So I decide to  remove the 4 carbs and change air filter for a K&N.

I discovered the valve deposit and was rather afraid.

The oil is clean, not water/coolant in it.

Sparkplug,  1,2,3 black and deposit, 4 white and clean.

Deposit is not equal beteween the 2 vavles of cylinder 1 and 4, the outer the dirtier.

I haven't restared the bike as I  still waiting for the K&N



--- In TriumphTrophy@ yahoogroups. com, Robert <apsllp@...> wrote:

>

> Personally, I'd suspect 2 (possibly 3) things working in tandem to give

> you the problems.   I'd want to pull the spark plugs to look at them.

> I'd also want to do a proper leak down compression check.  It's not one

> single problem by itself.

>

> 1) Oil in the Breather from possibly overfilling or a hung float (at

> some time) over filing the crankcase.

>

> 2) if the coils are original, yes a failing coil on #1 & 4 ( same coil

> for both cylinders and a common demomiator) Replace with Nology's, as

> there are too many who have had incomplete fuel charge burns to point in

> this direction.  Combined with excess oil in the mix it would be even

> harder for the stock coils to burn the charge.

>

> 3) Wrong heat range spark plugs

>

> 4) Carburetor set up

>

> When was the last proper Valve adjustment done?  What is the history of

> any previous valve adjustments?  What specific brand / Grade of oil has

> always been run in the machine?  Certain oils will damage valve guide

> seals  (Honda's were known for this as their rubber would swell and

> become soft)  Does anyone have the data?

>

> The Absolute LAST thing I would look at is pulling a head and doing a

> Valve Job.

>

> Has the machine ever been abused during it's life?  Does anyone really know?

>

> Bob Clark

> 01 Sunset Red Trophy 1200

> Jacksonville, FL / Augusta, GA

>

>

>

>

> philipwallington wrote:

> >  

> >

> >

> >

> > Forgive me guys but aren't we looking at the inlet valves here? I

> > can't think of a mechanism to let combustion products get back past

> > the valves.

> >

> > Unless the airbox and all 4 carbs are filthy with oil from the

> > breather - then my money is still on leaking valve guides. I've seen

> > similar deposits many times and it's always been that - albeit on much

> > older engines - don't even ask !!!!

> >

> > A smoke exhaust coming off overrun will give it away - but at 38k km -

> > worrying.

> >

> > Philip

> >

> >

>





   
     

   
   


 



 





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Mike Mulligan-2]

With regards to the plugs not being the same colour you may want to check the choke linkage on the carbs.  The tabs can get bent where they interact on the choke plunger on each carb.  My '96 Trophy 1200 had this issue.  Another member was kind enough to mention his experience of this seldom mentioned issue, so I'm passing it on.  

Mine is a low mileage bike that spent more time sitting than running so I replaced all the carb o-rings & gaskets, some of which are available via Suzuki cheaper than Triumph (search earlier posts).  Sticking floats are not uncommon as I had 1 do just that AFTER rebuilding the carbs...once corrected she ran great.

As previously mentioned by other members virtually every thing you could possibly need to know about Trophys are avaialble in this forum & http://www.triumphrat.net/trophy/   Enjoy her...once you get her road worthy she'l make you smile:)

Mike
'96 Trophy 1200
Vanouver, Canada

--- In TriumphTrophy@..., "POTIERj" <potierj@...> wrote:

>
> Thanks for your answers.
> I add some precision.
> It's a second hand, i just buy it few days ago.
> The previous owner was a quiet driver and absolutely not a mechanic.
> When He tried to start the bike it runs badly so the price drop down and I tried to make a good bargain. I owned a T1200 for 81 000 km so I I throught it was coils or pick or  fuel not coming down.
> When I replaced the coils for nology I discovered leaking fule hose.
> So I decide to  remove the 4 carbs and change air filter for a K&N.
> I discovered the valve deposit and was rather afraid.
> The oil is clean, not water/coolant in it.
> Sparkplug,  1,2,3 black and deposit, 4 white and clean.
> Deposit is not equal beteween the 2 vavles of cylinder 1 and 4, the outer the dirtier.
> I haven't restared the bike as I  still waiting for the K&N
>
>  
>
> --- In TriumphTrophy@..., Robert <apsllp@> wrote:
> >
> > Personally, I'd suspect 2 (possibly 3) things working in tandem to give
> > you the problems.   I'd want to pull the spark plugs to look at them.
> > I'd also want to do a proper leak down compression check.  It's not one
> > single problem by itself.
> >
> > 1) Oil in the Breather from possibly overfilling or a hung float (at
> > some time) over filing the crankcase.
> >
> > 2) if the coils are original, yes a failing coil on #1 & 4 ( same coil
> > for both cylinders and a common demomiator) Replace with Nology's, as
> > there are too many who have had incomplete fuel charge burns to point in
> > this direction.  Combined with excess oil in the mix it would be even
> > harder for the stock coils to burn the charge.
> >
> > 3) Wrong heat range spark plugs
> >
> > 4) Carburetor set up
> >
> > When was the last proper Valve adjustment done?  What is the history of
> > any previous valve adjustments?  What specific brand / Grade of oil has
> > always been run in the machine?  Certain oils will damage valve guide
> > seals  (Honda's were known for this as their rubber would swell and
> > become soft)  Does anyone have the data?
> >
> > The Absolute LAST thing I would look at is pulling a head and doing a
> > Valve Job.
> >
> > Has the machine ever been abused during it's life?  Does anyone really know?
> >
> > Bob Clark
> > 01 Sunset Red Trophy 1200
> > Jacksonville, FL / Augusta, GA
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > philipwallington wrote:
> > >  
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Forgive me guys but aren't we looking at the inlet valves here? I
> > > can't think of a mechanism to let combustion products get back past
> > > the valves.
> > >
> > > Unless the airbox and all 4 carbs are filthy with oil from the
> > > breather - then my money is still on leaking valve guides. I've seen
> > > similar deposits many times and it's always been that - albeit on much
> > > older engines - don't even ask !!!!
> > >
> > > A smoke exhaust coming off overrun will give it away - but at 38k km -
> > > worrying.
> > >
> > > Philip
> > >
> > >
> >
>

[POTIERj]

The 1200 is back on road today. Just 18km today.

Nology coils
New ignition pick up
New Triumph airfilter
New ngk Sparkplugs
New fuel hoses
Carbs  cleaned
New oil 5w 50, level middle of the "glass lens"

No misfiring, sounds good, take revs easily.

I'll focus on oil consumption and spark colors after 500 km.

The bike has been stored for several months before I brought it and previously used for a daily 5 km trip.

And for the moment, cold start, white smoke from the right exhaust.
Idle, when warm, nocolored smoke.
Afterthe 18km ride, on the lateral stand, when going to 5-7OOO rpm dark smoke from the 2 exhaust.



--- In TriumphTrophy@..., "djprowler2008" <iwong@...> wrote:

>
> With regards to the plugs not being the same colour you may want to check the choke linkage on the carbs.  The tabs can get bent where they interact on the choke plunger on each carb.  My '96 Trophy 1200 had this issue.  Another member was kind enough to mention his experience of this seldom mentioned issue, so I'm passing it on.  
>
> Mine is a low mileage bike that spent more time sitting than running so I replaced all the carb o-rings & gaskets, some of which are available via Suzuki cheaper than Triumph (search earlier posts).  Sticking floats are not uncommon as I had 1 do just that AFTER rebuilding the carbs...once corrected she ran great.
>
> As previously mentioned by other members virtually every thing you could possibly need to know about Trophys are avaialble in this forum & http://www.triumphrat.net/trophy/   Enjoy her...once you get her road worthy she'l make you smile:)
>
> Mike
> '96 Trophy 1200
> Vanouver, Canada
>
> --- In TriumphTrophy@..., "POTIERj" <potierj@> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for your answers.
> > I add some precision.
> > It's a second hand, i just buy it few days ago.
> > The previous owner was a quiet driver and absolutely not a mechanic.
> > When He tried to start the bike it runs badly so the price drop down and I tried to make a good bargain. I owned a T1200 for 81 000 km so I I throught it was coils or pick or  fuel not coming down.
> > When I replaced the coils for nology I discovered leaking fule hose.
> > So I decide to  remove the 4 carbs and change air filter for a K&N.
> > I discovered the valve deposit and was rather afraid.
> > The oil is clean, not water/coolant in it.
> > Sparkplug,  1,2,3 black and deposit, 4 white and clean.
> > Deposit is not equal beteween the 2 vavles of cylinder 1 and 4, the outer the dirtier.
> > I haven't restared the bike as I  still waiting for the K&N
> >
> >  
> >
> > --- In TriumphTrophy@..., Robert <apsllp@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Personally, I'd suspect 2 (possibly 3) things working in tandem to give
> > > you the problems.   I'd want to pull the spark plugs to look at them.
> > > I'd also want to do a proper leak down compression check.  It's not one
> > > single problem by itself.
> > >
> > > 1) Oil in the Breather from possibly overfilling or a hung float (at
> > > some time) over filing the crankcase.
> > >
> > > 2) if the coils are original, yes a failing coil on #1 & 4 ( same coil
> > > for both cylinders and a common demomiator) Replace with Nology's, as
> > > there are too many who have had incomplete fuel charge burns to point in
> > > this direction.  Combined with excess oil in the mix it would be even
> > > harder for the stock coils to burn the charge.
> > >
> > > 3) Wrong heat range spark plugs
> > >
> > > 4) Carburetor set up
> > >
> > > When was the last proper Valve adjustment done?  What is the history of
> > > any previous valve adjustments?  What specific brand / Grade of oil has
> > > always been run in the machine?  Certain oils will damage valve guide
> > > seals  (Honda's were known for this as their rubber would swell and
> > > become soft)  Does anyone have the data?
> > >
> > > The Absolute LAST thing I would look at is pulling a head and doing a
> > > Valve Job.
> > >
> > > Has the machine ever been abused during it's life?  Does anyone really know?
> > >
> > > Bob Clark
> > > 01 Sunset Red Trophy 1200
> > > Jacksonville, FL / Augusta, GA
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > philipwallington wrote:
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Forgive me guys but aren't we looking at the inlet valves here? I
> > > > can't think of a mechanism to let combustion products get back past
> > > > the valves.
> > > >
> > > > Unless the airbox and all 4 carbs are filthy with oil from the
> > > > breather - then my money is still on leaking valve guides. I've seen
> > > > similar deposits many times and it's always been that - albeit on much
> > > > older engines - don't even ask !!!!
> > > >
> > > > A smoke exhaust coming off overrun will give it away - but at 38k km -
> > > > worrying.
> > > >
> > > > Philip
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

[Andrew Bell- gmail]

POTIERj wrote:
> New oil 5w 50, level middle of the "glass lens"
>
>  
Is this a typo?
5w50 ?? would probably be a bit thin for the trophy. 10w40 or 15w50
would be the two best choices.

I'm interested in what you find, as my Daytona 1200 was smoking like a
train. However I fixed it by selling it...with full disclosure.

Andrew