windows junction points vs. SVN

[tmenzel]

hi,

i was wondering if subversion is the correct addressee with problems in regard to junction points.

and if other see the same problem, which is like so:

this is my directory

05.11.2009  09:20    <DIR>          smila-m1-patched-updated
06.11.2009  12:38    <JUNCTION>     smila-m1-patched-updated-JP [\??\E:\eCE\ce_sm544_AC\smila-m1-patched-updated]

when i call "svn info" on "smila-m1-patched-updated" i get correctly

E:\eCE\ce_sm544_AC\>svn info smila-m1-patched-updated smila-m1-patched-updated-JP
Path: smila-m1-patched-updated
URL: https://dev.eclipse.org/svnroot/rt/org.eclipse.smila/trunk
Repository Root: https://dev.eclipse.org/svnroot/rt/org.eclipse.smila
Repository UUID: 89c3eef5-5052-0410-b617-e4420d9a04fc
Revision: 259
Node Kind: directory
Schedule: normal
Last Changed Author: rrausch
Last Changed Rev: 259
Last Changed Date: 2009-03-23 16:18:31 +0100 (Mo, 23 Mrz 2009)

but when i do so on the junction point i get:

E:\eCE\ce_sm544_AC\>svn info smila-m1-patched-updated-JP
svn: '.' is not a working copy

when i cd into the junction point then it works again

E:\eCE\ce_sm544_AC\smila-m1-patched-updated-JP> svn info
Path: .
URL: https://dev.eclipse.org/svnroot/rt/org.eclipse.smila/trunk
Repository Root: https://dev.eclipse.org/svnroot/rt/org.eclipse.smila
Repository UUID: 89c3eef5-5052-0410-b617-e4420d9a04fc
Revision: 259
Node Kind: directory
Schedule: normal
Last Changed Author: rrausch
Last Changed Rev: 259
Last Changed Date: 2009-03-23 16:18:31 +0100 (Mo, 23 Mrz 2009)

can you tell me wherein the problem lies?

thx

PS:
my use case is that i use junction points (for branches) a lot.
and despite tortoise SVN i do much of my work with cmd line version.
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[Ryan Schmidt-60]

On Nov 6, 2009, at 05:47, thomas menzel wrote:

> i was wondering if subversion is the correct addressee with problems  
> in regard to junction points.
>
> and if other see the same problem, which is like so:
>
> this is my directory
>
> 05.11.2009  09:20    <DIR>          smila-m1-patched-updated
> 06.11.2009  12:38    <JUNCTION>     smila-m1-patched-updated-JP [\??
> \E:\eCE\ce_sm544_AC\smila-m1-patched-updated]
>
> when i call "svn info" on "smila-m1-patched-updated" i get correctly
>
> E:\eCE\ce_sm544_AC\>svn info smila-m1-patched-updated smila-m1-
> patched-updated-JP
> Path: smila-m1-patched-updated
> URL: https://dev.eclipse.org/svnroot/rt/org.eclipse.smila/trunk
> Repository Root: https://dev.eclipse.org/svnroot/rt/org.eclipse.smila
> Repository UUID: 89c3eef5-5052-0410-b617-e4420d9a04fc
> Revision: 259
> Node Kind: directory
> Schedule: normal
> Last Changed Author: rrausch
> Last Changed Rev: 259
> Last Changed Date: 2009-03-23 16:18:31 +0100 (Mo, 23 Mrz 2009)
>
> but when i do so on the junction point i get:
>
> E:\eCE\ce_sm544_AC\>svn info smila-m1-patched-updated-JP
> svn: '.' is not a working copy
>
> when i cd into the junction point then it works again
>
> E:\eCE\ce_sm544_AC\smila-m1-patched-updated-JP> svn info
> Path: .
> URL: https://dev.eclipse.org/svnroot/rt/org.eclipse.smila/trunk
> Repository Root: https://dev.eclipse.org/svnroot/rt/org.eclipse.smila
> Repository UUID: 89c3eef5-5052-0410-b617-e4420d9a04fc
> Revision: 259
> Node Kind: directory
> Schedule: normal
> Last Changed Author: rrausch
> Last Changed Rev: 259
> Last Changed Date: 2009-03-23 16:18:31 +0100 (Mo, 23 Mrz 2009)
>
> can you tell me wherein the problem lies?

Subversion does not support junctions.

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[tmenzel]

hi,

> Subversion does not support junctions.

well, ok - if that is the state now.
are you considering this for the future and if not, why not?

thx

-------- Original-Nachricht --------
> Datum: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 01:09:55 -0600
> Von: Ryan Schmidt <subversion-2009b@...>
> An: thomas menzel <dev.tom.menzel@...>
> CC: users@...
> Betreff: Re: windows junction points vs. SVN

>
> On Nov 6, 2009, at 05:47, thomas menzel wrote:
>
> > i was wondering if subversion is the correct addressee with problems  
> > in regard to junction points.
> >
> > and if other see the same problem, which is like so:
> >
> > this is my directory
> >
> > 05.11.2009  09:20    <DIR>          smila-m1-patched-updated
> > 06.11.2009  12:38    <JUNCTION>     smila-m1-patched-updated-JP [\??
> > \E:\eCE\ce_sm544_AC\smila-m1-patched-updated]
> >
> > when i call "svn info" on "smila-m1-patched-updated" i get correctly
> >
> > E:\eCE\ce_sm544_AC\>svn info smila-m1-patched-updated smila-m1-
> > patched-updated-JP
> > Path: smila-m1-patched-updated
> > URL: https://dev.eclipse.org/svnroot/rt/org.eclipse.smila/trunk
> > Repository Root: https://dev.eclipse.org/svnroot/rt/org.eclipse.smila
> > Repository UUID: 89c3eef5-5052-0410-b617-e4420d9a04fc
> > Revision: 259
> > Node Kind: directory
> > Schedule: normal
> > Last Changed Author: rrausch
> > Last Changed Rev: 259
> > Last Changed Date: 2009-03-23 16:18:31 +0100 (Mo, 23 Mrz 2009)
> >
> > but when i do so on the junction point i get:
> >
> > E:\eCE\ce_sm544_AC\>svn info smila-m1-patched-updated-JP
> > svn: '.' is not a working copy
> >
> > when i cd into the junction point then it works again
> >
> > E:\eCE\ce_sm544_AC\smila-m1-patched-updated-JP> svn info
> > Path: .
> > URL: https://dev.eclipse.org/svnroot/rt/org.eclipse.smila/trunk
> > Repository Root: https://dev.eclipse.org/svnroot/rt/org.eclipse.smila
> > Repository UUID: 89c3eef5-5052-0410-b617-e4420d9a04fc
> > Revision: 259
> > Node Kind: directory
> > Schedule: normal
> > Last Changed Author: rrausch
> > Last Changed Rev: 259
> > Last Changed Date: 2009-03-23 16:18:31 +0100 (Mo, 23 Mrz 2009)
> >
> > can you tell me wherein the problem lies?
>
> Subversion does not support junctions.
>

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[Lorenz-2]

Ryan Schmidt wrote:

>On Nov 6, 2009, at 05:47, thomas menzel wrote:
>>[...]
>> when i call "svn info" on "smila-m1-patched-updated" i get correctly
>>[...]
>> but when i do so on the junction point i get:
>>
>> E:\eCE\ce_sm544_AC\>svn info smila-m1-patched-updated-JP
>> svn: '.' is not a working copy
>>[...]
>
>Subversion does not support junctions.

this is not about versioning junction points, but about running svn
with a path pointing to a junction.

        svn info pathToAJunction

results in " svn: '.' is not a working copy", but

        cd pathToAJunction
        svn info .

works as expected.

Interestingly

         svnversion pathToAJunction

does work though.
--

Lorenz

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[Ignacio G. T.]

El 9 Nov 2009 a las 10:57, thomas menzel escribió:

> > Ryan Schmidt wrote:
> > Subversion does not support junctions.
>
> well, ok - if that is the state now.
> are you considering this for the future and if not, why not?

I'm another happy (future) user of sjunctversion :-)
--
Saludos
Ignacio G.T.

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[Stefan Sperling-7]

On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 04:20:40PM +0100, Ignacio G. T. wrote:
> El 9 Nov 2009 a las 10:57, thomas menzel escribió:
>
> > > Ryan Schmidt wrote:
> > > Subversion does not support junctions.
> >
> > well, ok - if that is the state now.
> > are you considering this for the future and if not, why not?
>
> I'm another happy (future) user of sjunctversion :-)

This is platform specific and should be abstracted away by APR.
If APR does not support NTFS junctions, Subversion won't either.
Subversion's support for symlinks on UNIX also depends on APR.

Stefan

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[Bob Archer]

> On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 04:20:40PM +0100, Ignacio G. T. wrote:
> > El 9 Nov 2009 a las 10:57, thomas menzel escribió:
> >
> > > > Ryan Schmidt wrote:
> > > > Subversion does not support junctions.
> > >
> > > well, ok - if that is the state now.
> > > are you considering this for the future and if not, why not?
> >
> > I'm another happy (future) user of sjunctversion :-)
>
> This is platform specific and should be abstracted away by APR.
> If APR does not support NTFS junctions, Subversion won't either.
> Subversion's support for symlinks on UNIX also depends on APR.
>
> Stefan

Do you know if apr hence svn supports symlinks on Windows?

BOb

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[Stefan Sperling-7]

On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 10:47:15AM -0500, Bob Archer wrote:

> > On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 04:20:40PM +0100, Ignacio G. T. wrote:
> > > El 9 Nov 2009 a las 10:57, thomas menzel escribió:
> > >
> > > > > Ryan Schmidt wrote:
> > > > > Subversion does not support junctions.
> > > >
> > > > well, ok - if that is the state now.
> > > > are you considering this for the future and if not, why not?
> > >
> > > I'm another happy (future) user of sjunctversion :-)
> >
> > This is platform specific and should be abstracted away by APR.
> > If APR does not support NTFS junctions, Subversion won't either.
> > Subversion's support for symlinks on UNIX also depends on APR.
> >
> > Stefan
>
> Do you know if apr hence svn supports symlinks on Windows?

I don't know.
Isn't an NTFS junction the closest equivalent to a symlink on Windows?

I don't know if APR supports NTFS junctions, just pointing out that
it is a prerequisite for such support in Subversion. If APR does not
support NTFS junctions yet, people should advocate for this support
to be added to APR (or better even create the necessary patches...)
If APR already supports NTFS junctions and this support is not used by
Subversion, we should at least open a corresponding issue in Subversion's
issue tracker if none exists yet.

Stefan

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[Bob Archer]

> On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 10:47:15AM -0500, Bob Archer wrote:
> > > On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 04:20:40PM +0100, Ignacio G. T. wrote:
> > > > El 9 Nov 2009 a las 10:57, thomas menzel escribió:
> > > >
> > > > > > Ryan Schmidt wrote:
> > > > > > Subversion does not support junctions.
> > > > >
> > > > > well, ok - if that is the state now.
> > > > > are you considering this for the future and if not, why
> not?
> > > >
> > > > I'm another happy (future) user of sjunctversion :-)
> > >
> > > This is platform specific and should be abstracted away by APR.
> > > If APR does not support NTFS junctions, Subversion won't
> either.
> > > Subversion's support for symlinks on UNIX also depends on APR.
> > >
> > > Stefan
> >
> > Do you know if apr hence svn supports symlinks on Windows?
>
> I don't know.
> Isn't an NTFS junction the closest equivalent to a symlink on
> Windows?

Yes and no. Starting with Windows Vista symlinks are supported via the mklink command.

> I don't know if APR supports NTFS junctions, just pointing out that
> it is a prerequisite for such support in Subversion. If APR does
> not
> support NTFS junctions yet, people should advocate for this support
> to be added to APR (or better even create the necessary patches...)
> If APR already supports NTFS junctions and this support is not used
> by
> Subversion, we should at least open a corresponding issue in
> Subversion's
> issue tracker if none exists yet.

Sounds like it would be worth exploring. (no pun intended)

BOb

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[Bert Huijben-6]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Archer [mailto:bob.archer@...]
> Sent: dinsdag 10 november 2009 17:03
> To: Stefan Sperling
> Cc: Ignacio G. T.; users@...
> Subject: RE: windows junction points vs. SVN_67460
>
> > On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 10:47:15AM -0500, Bob Archer wrote:
> > > > On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 04:20:40PM +0100, Ignacio G. T. wrote:
> > > > > El 9 Nov 2009 a las 10:57, thomas menzel escribió:
> > > > >
> > > > > > > Ryan Schmidt wrote:
> > > > > > > Subversion does not support junctions.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > well, ok - if that is the state now.
> > > > > > are you considering this for the future and if not, why
> > not?
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm another happy (future) user of sjunctversion :-)
> > > >
> > > > This is platform specific and should be abstracted away by APR.
> > > > If APR does not support NTFS junctions, Subversion won't
> > either.
> > > > Subversion's support for symlinks on UNIX also depends on APR.
> > > >
> > > > Stefan
> > >
> > > Do you know if apr hence svn supports symlinks on Windows?
> >
> > I don't know.
> > Isn't an NTFS junction the closest equivalent to a symlink on
> > Windows?
>
> Yes and no. Starting with Windows Vista symlinks are supported via the
> mklink command.
>
> > I don't know if APR supports NTFS junctions, just pointing out that
> > it is a prerequisite for such support in Subversion. If APR does
> > not
> > support NTFS junctions yet, people should advocate for this support
> > to be added to APR (or better even create the necessary patches...)
> > If APR already supports NTFS junctions and this support is not used
> > by
> > Subversion, we should at least open a corresponding issue in
> > Subversion's
> > issue tracker if none exists yet.
>
> Sounds like it would be worth exploring. (no pun intended)

When you create a symbolic link on Windows you have to pass whether the link will point to a directory or to a file.
( http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa363866(VS.85).aspx )

Subversion doesn't have this information and APR can't change its api in a backwards compatible way to ask the library user (=subversion) this information.

Further APR requires the information on whether an OS has symbolic links on compile time, while Windows XP officially doesn't support symlinks yet and requiring Windows Vista or later is not an option yet.

So, currently I don't see how we can implement symbolic links on Windows.. Maybe it can be done for symlinks pointing to files/directories that are in the same working copy.. But even then it could break on a "svn switch".

        Bert

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[Stefan Sperling-7]

On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 05:40:56PM +0100, Bert Huijben wrote:
> When you create a symbolic link on Windows you have to pass whether
> the link will point to a directory or to a file.

NTFS junctions also?

Stefan

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[Ryan Schmidt-60]

On Nov 10, 2009, at 10:46, Stefan Sperling wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 05:40:56PM +0100, Bert Huijben wrote:
>
>> When you create a symbolic link on Windows you have to pass whether
>> the link will point to a directory or to a file.
>
> NTFS junctions also?

As far as I can tell, NTFS junctions are for directories only, and  
cannot be used for files.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTFS_junction_point

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[Stefan Sperling-7]

On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 05:00:03PM -0600, Ryan Schmidt wrote:

> On Nov 10, 2009, at 10:46, Stefan Sperling wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 05:40:56PM +0100, Bert Huijben wrote:
> >
> >> When you create a symbolic link on Windows you have to pass whether
> >> the link will point to a directory or to a file.
> >
> > NTFS junctions also?
>
> As far as I can tell, NTFS junctions are for directories only, and  
> cannot be used for files.

Right, so all of this has quirks...

Well, I guess APR could always add an extra API we could use,
without causing the compatibility problems Bert mentioned.

The existing API would still be present and only support good
old UNIX symlinks, but new functions could be added to deal
with the various quirky windows "equivalents" (excuse my sarcasm :)

But I'm not an APR dev so I don't know what they would think of
this idea.

Stefan

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[Jason Malinowski]

> On Nov 10, 2009, at 10:46, Stefan Sperling wrote:
>
> As far as I can tell, NTFS junctions are for directories only, and
> cannot be used for files.

Windows Vista and later extended symlinks to be proper residents of the
filesystem. NTFS junction points are still around. Look at mklink /? and
you'll see you can make all three. The equivalent API is CreateSymbolicLink.

Note the default security policy for Vista and Win7 enforces that only those
in the Administrators group can create symlinks (see Local Security Policy >
Local Polices > User Rights Assignment), and so those running with UAC on
would have to elevate in order to use this. Non-admins could not use it at
all unless their administrators adjusted security policy, which is not
likely to be the case. So you'd have a pretty bad experience for many users
no matter what you try.

Jason Malinowski


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ryan Schmidt [mailto:subversion-2009b@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 3:00 PM
> To: Stefan Sperling
> Cc: Bert Huijben; 'Bob Archer'; 'Ignacio G. T.';
users@...

> Subject: Re: windows junction points vs. SVN_67460
>
> On Nov 10, 2009, at 10:46, Stefan Sperling wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 05:40:56PM +0100, Bert Huijben wrote:
> >
> >> When you create a symbolic link on Windows you have to pass whether
> >> the link will point to a directory or to a file.
> >
> > NTFS junctions also?
>
> As far as I can tell, NTFS junctions are for directories only, and
> cannot be used for files.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTFS_junction_point
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
>

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>
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[Stefan Sperling-7]

On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 08:00:00PM -0800, Jason Malinowski wrote:

> Windows Vista and later extended symlinks to be proper residents of the
> filesystem. NTFS junction points are still around. Look at mklink /? and
> you'll see you can make all three. The equivalent API is CreateSymbolicLink.
>
> Note the default security policy for Vista and Win7 enforces that only those
> in the Administrators group can create symlinks (see Local Security Policy >
> Local Polices > User Rights Assignment), and so those running with UAC on
> would have to elevate in order to use this. Non-admins could not use it at
> all unless their administrators adjusted security policy, which is not
> likely to be the case. So you'd have a pretty bad experience for many users
> no matter what you try.

Thanks for the info. I guess we should tell people who need working
symlinks to simply switch to UNIX-like systems then, or to ask microsoft
to provide another type of symlink that can actually be used.

Stefan

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[Bert Huijben-6]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: 'Stefan Sperling' [mailto:stsp@...]
> Sent: dinsdag 10 november 2009 17:46
> To: Bert Huijben
> Cc: 'Bob Archer'; 'Ignacio G. T.'; users@...
> Subject: Re: windows junction points vs. SVN_67460
>
> On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 05:40:56PM +0100, Bert Huijben wrote:
> > When you create a symbolic link on Windows you have to pass whether
> > the link will point to a directory or to a file.
>
> NTFS junctions also?

NTFS junctions are similar to a unix "mount". So these can only point to
directories. (And require full administrative privileges to create).

Creating/changing Symlinks requires a bit more than the common read-write
rights, so that might be an additional issue for creating symlink support.

        Bert

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[Bert Huijben-6]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stefan Sperling [mailto:stsp@...]
> Sent: woensdag 11 november 2009 0:09
> To: Ryan Schmidt
> Cc: Bert Huijben; 'Bob Archer'; 'Ignacio G. T.';
> users@...
> Subject: Re: windows junction points vs. SVN_67460
>
> On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 05:00:03PM -0600, Ryan Schmidt wrote:
> > On Nov 10, 2009, at 10:46, Stefan Sperling wrote:
> >
> > > On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 05:40:56PM +0100, Bert Huijben wrote:
> > >
> > >> When you create a symbolic link on Windows you have to pass
> whether
> > >> the link will point to a directory or to a file.
> > >
> > > NTFS junctions also?
> >
> > As far as I can tell, NTFS junctions are for directories only, and
> > cannot be used for files.
>
> Right, so all of this has quirks...
>
> Well, I guess APR could always add an extra API we could use,
> without causing the compatibility problems Bert mentioned.
>
> The existing API would still be present and only support good
> old UNIX symlinks, but new functions could be added to deal
> with the various quirky windows "equivalents" (excuse my sarcasm :)
>
> But I'm not an APR dev so I don't know what they would think of
> this idea.

But then back to subversion: Where do we get the information on where the
symlink points to?

Our current storage just stores a path (without any canonicalization). If
the path points to "/etc/something" would that be a file or a directory?

It would work for symlinks that point in the repository or to existing
files, but getting it to work requires backend changes. (Probably Subversion
2.0... or at least a different new storage model for new symlinks)

Note that we don't have to wait for APR for these features. There are many
more Windows specific code paths in our code and adding a few more would not
harm us. It's just that we don't have the necessary information (+probably
authorization) to create a working symlink.

        Bert

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[Stein Somers]

Bert Huijben wrote:
> NTFS junctions are similar to a unix "mount". So these can only point to
> directories. (And require full administrative privileges to create).

The standard "fsutil reparsepoint" command requires administrative
privilege, but there are other programs around that don't.

To my understanding, the original request was not for svn to grasp or
create junction points, but instead not to take notice. If the working
directory top is a junction point instead of a "real" directory, just
traverse it, like most software does on Windows, and like most software
treats a symbolic link on Unix. It seems like SVN or APR is being too
specific when checking the sanity of the working copy. But I lack
experience with the Windows API.

--
Stein

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