zyn/yoshimi on EEE netbook

[Josh Lawrence]

Hey everyone,

I'm having some issues with zyn/yoshimi on my EEE netbook.  (this
problem applies to both synths.)  when I attempt to use the patch
browser to call up a new patch, the application zombies (is that the
correct term?), and I cannot do anything else short of shutting down
the app and opening it again.  this happens each and every time I try
to run either application.

funny thing is, this only happens on my netbook, which is running
xubuntu with the linux-rt kernel.

I don't know where to begin on troubleshooting this issue.  I know I'm
not giving you near enough information to make suggestions.  so, could
you give me some hints/tips on what I could do to troubleshoot?

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[Frank Kober]

> when I attempt to
> use the patch
> browser to call up a new patch, the application zombies (is
> that the
> correct term?), and I cannot do anything else short of
> shutting down
> the app and opening it again.  this happens each and
> every time I try
> to run either application.

I had instantaneaous shutdowns of zyn/yoshimi doing patch loads when using kde instead of lxde, and I could get rid of that by increasing the oscillator size, which is now 1024.
Could the "freeze" you get be due to that as well?

Frank



     
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[Josh Lawrence]

On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 1:51 PM, Frank Kober <goemusic@...> wrote:
> I had instantaneaous shutdowns of zyn/yoshimi doing patch loads when using kde instead of lxde, and I could get rid of that by increasing the oscillator size, which is now 1024.
> Could the "freeze" you get be due to that as well?

hey Frank,

are you referring to a setting in yoshimi?  or possibly the
frames/period setting in jack?  if it is in yoshimi, I might need a
little direction finding it.

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[Cal-8]

Josh Lawrence wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 1:51 PM, Frank Kober <goemusic@...> wrote:
>> I had instantaneaous shutdowns of zyn/yoshimi doing patch loads when using kde instead of lxde, and I could get rid of that by increasing the oscillator size, which is now 1024.
>> Could the "freeze" you get be due to that as well?
>
> hey Frank,
>
> are you referring to a setting in yoshimi?  or possibly the
> frames/period setting in jack?  if it is in yoshimi, I might need a
> little direction finding it.
>

Top menus, File -> Settings -> Main Settings -> OscilSize.

There's a degree of mystery around oscilsize values and when, where and why
certain values won't work. Can't remember who, but someone recently presented
a very reasonable sounding theory that the oscilsize would need to be at least
twice the jack period for the fftw routines to be comfortable.

I'm curious about cases of silent shutdown when it encounters params/factors
it can't cope with. That's not acceptable behaviour, and should be improved.

Cheers.
 
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[Josh Lawrence]

On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 6:38 PM, cal <cal@...> wrote:
> Top menus, File -> Settings -> Main Settings -> OscilSize.

ok, I found that this was set at 2048.  just to eliminate some
variables, here's what I've done:

1. plug the netbook in, just so it won't be starving the cpu to powersave
2. hook up my edirol ua-25ex, just to eliminate hardware issues (I
heard Intel HDA sucks)

first blush, things are looking good but there are xruns all over the
place, so I installed the linux-rt kernel from the ubuntu repos.
eventually, yoshimi zombies, so I reboot into my new kernel.

zombies at every patch switch.  adjusted the OscilSize just for
giggles, but it didn't do any good.  my only thoughts at this point is
that this netbook just might be too little power for this application.

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[Josh Lawrence]

On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 7:11 PM, Josh Lawrence <hardbop200@...> wrote:
> zombies at every patch switch.  adjusted the OscilSize just for
> giggles, but it didn't do any good.  my only thoughts at this point is
> that this netbook just might be too little power for this application.

cal - here's some information that might be helpful?

from jack (even started jack with the -Z option, still no luck):

subgraph starting at yoshimi timed out (subgraph_wait_fd=9, status =
0, state = Running, pollret = 0 revents = 0x0)
bad status (1) for client yoshimi handling event (type = 5)

from yoshim (hyperthreading is turned on, there aren't really two
processors here)i:

josh@josh-laptop:~$ yoshimi
2 processors online, fftw3 to use 2 threads
OscilGen::active_count now 1
No such directory, root bank entry: ../banks
No such directory, root bank entry: /usr/local/share/zynaddsubfx/banks
No such directory, root bank entry: banks
No such directory, root bank entry: ~/banks
ADsynth Oscilsize: 1024
Sample Rate: 44100
Sound Buffer Size: 256
Internal latency: 5.80499 ms
Delete OscilGen::tmpsmps, active_count now 0
OscilGen::active_count now 1
Jack reports error: jack_client_thread zombified - exiting from JACK

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[Cal-8]

Josh Lawrence wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 7:11 PM, Josh Lawrence <hardbop200@...> wrote:
>> zombies at every patch switch.  adjusted the OscilSize just for
>> giggles, but it didn't do any good.  my only thoughts at this point is
>> that this netbook just might be too little power for this application.
>
> cal - here's some information that might be helpful?
>
> from jack (even started jack with the -Z option, still no luck):
>
> subgraph starting at yoshimi timed out (subgraph_wait_fd=9, status =
> 0, state = Running, pollret = 0 revents = 0x0)
> bad status (1) for client yoshimi handling event (type = 5)
>
> from yoshim (hyperthreading is turned on, there aren't really two
> processors here)i:

I'd be inclined to try turning hyperthreading off. It isn't going to help, and
can certainly make things worse.
 
> josh@josh-laptop:~$ yoshimi
> 2 processors online, fftw3 to use 2 threads
again, turn off hyperthreading. If only I could figure out how to
programmatically tell the difference between real and pretend processor
counts ...
> [ ... ]

Plus a couple of points from your previous post ...

> 2. hook up my edirol ua-25ex, just to eliminate hardware issues (I
> heard Intel HDA sucks)

I'm not so sure that's still true, though it definitely was the case quite a
while back. Quite a lot of patient, persistent effort has gone into sorting
out the hda drivers, and these days the horrible little thing can perform
ridiculously well for what it is.

[ ... ]

> zombies at every patch switch.  adjusted the OscilSize just for
> giggles, but it didn't do any good.  my only thoughts at this point is
> that this netbook just might be too little power for this application.

Quite possibly true. If the cpu simply can't keep up the pace required, it
simply ain't gonna work. However, silent, catastrophic failure isn't a polite
way for the app to handle the situation. I'm interested in improving that,
especially with regard to "zombies at every patch switch".

cheers, Cal

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[Josh Lawrence]

On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 8:41 PM, cal <cal@...> wrote:
> I'd be inclined to try turning hyperthreading off. It isn't going to help, and
> can certainly make things worse.

well, after poking around the bios, they don't allow you to turn that
option off.  crap...

> Quite possibly true. If the cpu simply can't keep up the pace required, it
> simply ain't gonna work. However, silent, catastrophic failure isn't a polite
> way for the app to handle the situation. I'm interested in improving that,
> especially with regard to "zombies at every patch switch".

ok, and if that's what the final word is, then I'm just going to have
to be OK with that.  however, I'm curious - when I avoid jack
altogether and just run the app using ALSA only, patch switches work
just dandy.  obviously that really outside the bounds of what you're
trying to do (improve jack), but I'm less inclined to believe that the
processor is at fault - if it was, wouldn't the whole thing bomb out,
regardless if I'm using ALSA or jack?

IANAP, b/t/w.  :)

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[Cal-8]

Josh Lawrence wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 8:41 PM, cal <cal@...> wrote:
>> I'd be inclined to try turning hyperthreading off. It isn't going to help, and
>> can certainly make things worse.
>
> well, after poking around the bios, they don't allow you to turn that
> option off.  crap...
bummer indeed!

>> Quite possibly true. If the cpu simply can't keep up the pace required, it
>> simply ain't gonna work. However, silent, catastrophic failure isn't a polite
>> way for the app to handle the situation. I'm interested in improving that,
>> especially with regard to "zombies at every patch switch".
>
> ok, and if that's what the final word is, then I'm just going to have
> to be OK with that.  however, I'm curious - when I avoid jack
> altogether and just run the app using ALSA only, patch switches work
> just dandy.  obviously that really outside the bounds of what you're
> trying to do (improve jack), but I'm less inclined to believe that the
> processor is at fault - if it was, wouldn't the whole thing bomb out,
> regardless if I'm using ALSA or jack?

No, that's exactly what I'd like to address. Jack does what it does (and very
well too!), but if the app (zyn/yoshi) doesn't conform to jack's requirements,
things aren't going to go well. So yoshi does need to improve the way it relates
to jack, especially during it's "private moments" such as patch changes.  

> IANAP, b/t/w.  :)
Very few of us are if the truth were admitted :-).


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[Jonathan E. Brickman-2]

Josh, try turning ACPI off.  I have learned that some poor ACPI
implementations interfere greatly with CPU horsepower, and this may be
causing your problems.  You might try other kernel options as well,
including leaving ACPI on but turning IOAPIC off, because if IOAPIC is
off, multi-CPU functionality including hyperthreading does not have the
needed registers, and is therefore disabled.

J.E.B.


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[Frank Neumann]

Hi list,
I'd just like to chime in here -

Josh Lawrence <hardbop200@...> wrote:

[..]
> first blush, things are looking good but there are xruns all over the
> place, so I installed the linux-rt kernel from the ubuntu repos.
> eventually, yoshimi zombies, so I reboot into my new kernel.
>
> zombies at every patch switch.  adjusted the OscilSize just for
> giggles, but it didn't do any good.  my only thoughts at this point is
> that this netbook just might be too little power for this application.

I have been trying every 5 or so updates of yoshimi in the last weeks, and for
me it's similar to Josh's experiences:

- On an Asus eeePC Netbook, I can set up things fine and can also play the default
  Sine sound, but normally within a few patch change clicks, yoshimi zombifies.

- On an AMD64 2-core desktop PC, after setting things up the first MIDI event
  received by yoshimi already causes the zombie..so no sound at all here.

Both machines run Ubuntu (on the desktop PC 9.04, on the eeePC 9.10), on both
the standard ZynaddSubFX with ALSA backend works fine, and other JACK applications
like qsampler/LinuxSampler also run just fine.

I am not sure whether the last yoshimi developments did target to improve the
zombification situation, but if they did, things have rather gotten worse than
better for me. If I can assist in tracking the problem down, be my guest.

Greetings,
Frank
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[Folderol]

On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 20:18:24 +0100
Frank Neumann <beachnase@...> wrote:

>
> Hi list,
> I'd just like to chime in here -
>
> Josh Lawrence <hardbop200@...> wrote:
>
> [..]
> > first blush, things are looking good but there are xruns all over the
> > place, so I installed the linux-rt kernel from the ubuntu repos.
> > eventually, yoshimi zombies, so I reboot into my new kernel.
> >
> > zombies at every patch switch.  adjusted the OscilSize just for
> > giggles, but it didn't do any good.  my only thoughts at this point is
> > that this netbook just might be too little power for this application.
>
> I have been trying every 5 or so updates of yoshimi in the last weeks, and for
> me it's similar to Josh's experiences:
>
> - On an Asus eeePC Netbook, I can set up things fine and can also play the default
>   Sine sound, but normally within a few patch change clicks, yoshimi zombifies.
>
> - On an AMD64 2-core desktop PC, after setting things up the first MIDI event
>   received by yoshimi already causes the zombie..so no sound at all here.

This is very strange. I am running on an AMD dual core desktop machine
and stability is exceptional. However I'm not running ubuntu. I am
running 64studio 3 beta with some debian squeeze enhancements.

Are you running 'standard' ubuntu or have you added an RT kernel with
the appropriate adjustments to /etc/security/limits.conf ?

--
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Exchange them and we can both have a poem, a tune, and a song.
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[Cal-8]

Folderol wrote:

> On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 20:18:24 +0100
> Frank Neumann <beachnase@...> wrote:
>
>> Hi list,
>> I'd just like to chime in here -
>>
>> Josh Lawrence <hardbop200@...> wrote:
>>
>> [..]
>>> first blush, things are looking good but there are xruns all over the
>>> place, so I installed the linux-rt kernel from the ubuntu repos.
>>> eventually, yoshimi zombies, so I reboot into my new kernel.
>>>
>>> zombies at every patch switch.  adjusted the OscilSize just for
>>> giggles, but it didn't do any good.  my only thoughts at this point is
>>> that this netbook just might be too little power for this application.
>> I have been trying every 5 or so updates of yoshimi in the last weeks, and for
>> me it's similar to Josh's experiences:
>>
>> - On an Asus eeePC Netbook, I can set up things fine and can also play the default
>>   Sine sound, but normally within a few patch change clicks, yoshimi zombifies.
>>
>> - On an AMD64 2-core desktop PC, after setting things up the first MIDI event
>>   received by yoshimi already causes the zombie..so no sound at all here.
>
> This is very strange. I am running on an AMD dual core desktop machine
> and stability is exceptional. However I'm not running ubuntu. I am
> running 64studio 3 beta with some debian squeeze enhancements.
>
> Are you running 'standard' ubuntu or have you added an RT kernel with
> the appropriate adjustments to /etc/security/limits.conf ?
>

Ok. I think I'm starting to get the picture. At 0.34 I tried using the threaded
fftw3 routines. From my observations, that hasn't really contributed anything
worthwhile performance wise, and it's starting to look like that move has brought
instability for some. Give me a moment or three and I'll drop it.

cheers,
 
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[Frank Neumann]

Hi,
On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:30:29 +0000
Folderol <folderol@...> wrote:

[..]

> > I have been trying every 5 or so updates of yoshimi in the last weeks, and for
> > me it's similar to Josh's experiences:
> >
> > - On an Asus eeePC Netbook, I can set up things fine and can also play the default
> >   Sine sound, but normally within a few patch change clicks, yoshimi zombifies.
> >
> > - On an AMD64 2-core desktop PC, after setting things up the first MIDI event
> >   received by yoshimi already causes the zombie..so no sound at all here.
>
> This is very strange. I am running on an AMD dual core desktop machine
> and stability is exceptional. However I'm not running ubuntu. I am
> running 64studio 3 beta with some debian squeeze enhancements.
>
> Are you running 'standard' ubuntu or have you added an RT kernel with
> the appropriate adjustments to /etc/security/limits.conf ?

On the AMD64, it's still a vanilla 2.6.28-16, while on the eeePC the 9.10 upgrade
got me a shiny 2.6.31-9-rt.

On both boxes, /etc/security/limits.conf has something like

@audio - rtprio 90
@audio - nice -10
@audio - memlock 1000000

Greetings,
Frank
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[Josh Lawrence]

On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 2:01 PM, cal <cal@...> wrote:
> Ok. I think I'm starting to get the picture. At 0.34 I tried using the threaded
> fftw3 routines. From my observations, that hasn't really contributed anything
> worthwhile performance wise, and it's starting to look like that move has brought
> instability for some. Give me a moment or three and I'll drop it.

awesome, cal - I'm ready to try it whenever you get ready, just say the word!

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[Folderol]

On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 15:28:39 -0600
Josh Lawrence <hardbop200@...> wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 2:01 PM, cal <cal@...> wrote:
> > Ok. I think I'm starting to get the picture. At 0.34 I tried using the threaded
> > fftw3 routines. From my observations, that hasn't really contributed anything
> > worthwhile performance wise, and it's starting to look like that move has brought
> > instability for some. Give me a moment or three and I'll drop it.
>
> awesome, cal - I'm ready to try it whenever you get ready, just say the word!

Just had a look at this on my eeePC901 (I'd never bothered before) and
I have a suspicion there is a problem with the jack-rtkernel linkup in
ubuntu - also running 9.10 and just installed the RT stuff.

If I run either standard zyn. or yoshimi through jack without RT
enabled it all works although a bit jumpy on most patches. As soon as
I enable RT I get the same zombies from both zyn and yoshi

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[david-602]

Folderol wrote:

> On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 20:18:24 +0100
> Frank Neumann <beachnase@...> wrote:
>
>> Hi list,
>> I'd just like to chime in here -
>>
>> Josh Lawrence <hardbop200@...> wrote:
>>
>> [..]
>>> first blush, things are looking good but there are xruns all over the
>>> place, so I installed the linux-rt kernel from the ubuntu repos.
>>> eventually, yoshimi zombies, so I reboot into my new kernel.
>>>
>>> zombies at every patch switch.  adjusted the OscilSize just for
>>> giggles, but it didn't do any good.  my only thoughts at this point is
>>> that this netbook just might be too little power for this application.
>> I have been trying every 5 or so updates of yoshimi in the last weeks, and for
>> me it's similar to Josh's experiences:
>>
>> - On an Asus eeePC Netbook, I can set up things fine and can also play the default
>>   Sine sound, but normally within a few patch change clicks, yoshimi zombifies.
>>
>> - On an AMD64 2-core desktop PC, after setting things up the first MIDI event
>>   received by yoshimi already causes the zombie..so no sound at all here.
>
> This is very strange. I am running on an AMD dual core desktop machine
> and stability is exceptional. However I'm not running ubuntu. I am
> running 64studio 3 beta with some debian squeeze enhancements.

That reminded me (completely unrelated to the original posters's
question) - I downloaded US beta 3, K3B only wants to burn it onto a CD
but then announces that its burning more than the official capacity ...
and completely refuses to offer an option to burn it to a DVD ...

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[Roger E]

david wrote:

> Folderol wrote:
>  
>> On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 20:18:24 +0100
>> Frank Neumann <beachnase@...> wrote:
>>
>>    
>>> Hi list,
>>> I'd just like to chime in here -
>>>
>>> Josh Lawrence <hardbop200@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> [..]
>>>      
>>>> first blush, things are looking good but there are xruns all over the
>>>> place, so I installed the linux-rt kernel from the ubuntu repos.
>>>> eventually, yoshimi zombies, so I reboot into my new kernel.
>>>>
>>>> zombies at every patch switch.  adjusted the OscilSize just for
>>>> giggles, but it didn't do any good.  my only thoughts at this point is
>>>> that this netbook just might be too little power for this application.
>>>>        
>>> I have been trying every 5 or so updates of yoshimi in the last weeks, and for
>>> me it's similar to Josh's experiences:
>>>
>>> - On an Asus eeePC Netbook, I can set up things fine and can also play the default
>>>   Sine sound, but normally within a few patch change clicks, yoshimi zombifies.
>>>
>>> - On an AMD64 2-core desktop PC, after setting things up the first MIDI event
>>>   received by yoshimi already causes the zombie..so no sound at all here.
>>>      
>> This is very strange. I am running on an AMD dual core desktop machine
>> and stability is exceptional. However I'm not running ubuntu. I am
>> running 64studio 3 beta with some debian squeeze enhancements.
>>    
>
> That reminded me (completely unrelated to the original posters's
> question) - I downloaded US beta 3, K3B only wants to burn it onto a CD
> but then announces that its burning more than the official capacity ...
> and completely refuses to offer an option to burn it to a DVD ...
>
>  

That's a bug I've noticed before. If you right-click on the .iso you
only get the option to burn to CD. If you open K3b first, select "Burn
DVD iso" then navigate to the .iso and select it, all should be well.

Roger
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[david-602]

Roger wrote:

> david wrote:
>> Folderol wrote:
>>  
>>> On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 20:18:24 +0100
>>> Frank Neumann <beachnase@...> wrote:
>>>
>>>    
>>>> Hi list,
>>>> I'd just like to chime in here -
>>>>
>>>> Josh Lawrence <hardbop200@...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> [..]
>>>>      
>>>>> first blush, things are looking good but there are xruns all over the
>>>>> place, so I installed the linux-rt kernel from the ubuntu repos.
>>>>> eventually, yoshimi zombies, so I reboot into my new kernel.
>>>>>
>>>>> zombies at every patch switch.  adjusted the OscilSize just for
>>>>> giggles, but it didn't do any good.  my only thoughts at this point is
>>>>> that this netbook just might be too little power for this application.
>>>>>        
>>>> I have been trying every 5 or so updates of yoshimi in the last
>>>> weeks, and for
>>>> me it's similar to Josh's experiences:
>>>>
>>>> - On an Asus eeePC Netbook, I can set up things fine and can also
>>>> play the default
>>>>   Sine sound, but normally within a few patch change clicks, yoshimi
>>>> zombifies.
>>>>
>>>> - On an AMD64 2-core desktop PC, after setting things up the first
>>>> MIDI event
>>>>   received by yoshimi already causes the zombie..so no sound at all
>>>> here.
>>>>      
>>> This is very strange. I am running on an AMD dual core desktop machine
>>> and stability is exceptional. However I'm not running ubuntu. I am
>>> running 64studio 3 beta with some debian squeeze enhancements.
>>>    
>>
>> That reminded me (completely unrelated to the original posters's
>> question) - I downloaded US beta 3, K3B only wants to burn it onto a
>> CD but then announces that its burning more than the official capacity
>> ... and completely refuses to offer an option to burn it to a DVD ...
>>  
> That's a bug I've noticed before. If you right-click on the .iso you
> only get the option to burn to CD. If you open K3b first, select "Burn
> DVD iso" then navigate to the .iso and select it, all should be well.

That worked. Unfortunately, it's not a Live DVD - it only wants to install.

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[Cal-8]

Frank Neumann wrote:

> Hi list,
> I'd just like to chime in here -
>
> Josh Lawrence <hardbop200@...> wrote:
>
> [..]
>> first blush, things are looking good but there are xruns all over the
>> place, so I installed the linux-rt kernel from the ubuntu repos.
>> eventually, yoshimi zombies, so I reboot into my new kernel.
>>
>> zombies at every patch switch.  adjusted the OscilSize just for
>> giggles, but it didn't do any good.  my only thoughts at this point is
>> that this netbook just might be too little power for this application.
>
> I have been trying every 5 or so updates of yoshimi in the last weeks, and for
> me it's similar to Josh's experiences:
>
> - On an Asus eeePC Netbook, I can set up things fine and can also play the default
>   Sine sound, but normally within a few patch change clicks, yoshimi zombifies.
>
> - On an AMD64 2-core desktop PC, after setting things up the first MIDI event
>   received by yoshimi already causes the zombie..so no sound at all here.
>
> Both machines run Ubuntu (on the desktop PC 9.04, on the eeePC 9.10), on both
> the standard ZynaddSubFX with ALSA backend works fine, and other JACK applications
> like qsampler/LinuxSampler also run just fine.
>
> I am not sure whether the last yoshimi developments did target to improve the
> zombification situation, but if they did, things have rather gotten worse than
> better for me. If I can assist in tracking the problem down, be my guest.

Up until the current "Record" attempt, all that was really changing was attempts at
efficiency & optimisation improvements (clearly, not all successful!). Today I think
I've put a sprinkle of lucid moments to good purpose, and perhaps 0.038 offers an
improvement to the zombie infestations. Hope so.
<http://www.graggrag.com/yoshimi/yoshimi-0.038.tar.bz2>

cheers, Cal
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